Current Events > Hitmonlee who can't kick vs Hitmonchan who can't punch

(+) Yeah! (+)

hitmonlee gets punching moves

Hitmonlee still has Sucker Punch

Giacomo_Hawkins posted...

Hitmonlee still has Sucker Punch

Which absolutely makes sense, because who'd fuckin' see that coming?

struggle vs struggle

Chan can actually learn High Jump Kick.

viewmaster_pi posted...

hitmonlee gets punching moves

And Hitmonchan gets kicking moves.

They, ultimately, learn many of the same moves, via TM, that would not be impacted by the restrictions, such as Earthquake, Rock Slide, and so on. However, Hitmonchan gets more varied type coverage, such as Trailblaze, which probably gives him the edge.

Actually, Hitmonchan wins for sure. He's the only one of the two that naturally learns Counter. Hitmonlee can only learn it via breeding, whereas Hitmonchan learns it via level up. Higher physical defense plus Counter means Hitmonchan wins much more, on average, considering they both primarily only really learn Physical attacks.

Hitmonchan should win on average via High Jump Kick and higher defense.

I'll just be assuming they are using Close Combat. Hitmonlee wins if it gets a crit, otherwise Hitmonchan survives and 1hkos with its own Close Combat.

Feels like Hitmonlee should win it most of the time. Higher speed and attack should give it the W

Tryin2GetDaPipe posted...

Feels like Hitmonlee should win it most of the time. Higher speed and attack should give it the W

Hitmonchan has higher Physical Defense, which negates the higher attack, and Hitmonchan is the only one who can naturally use Counter, which means if Hitmonlee uses any decent attack at all it probably gets OHKO'd.

viewmaster_pi posted...

hitmonlee gets punching moves

And Hitmonchan can get kicking moves.

Giacomo_Hawkins posted...

Hitmonlee still has Sucker Punch

Sucker Punch is technically not a punching move. It's Japanese name is akin to "sneak attack". That's why it's not powered-up by the ability Iron Fist.

I thought Hitmonlee could get Zen Headbutt though an egg move but looked it up, I guess not. Neither of them learn a flying, psychic, or fairy move.

Otherwise, defensive build Hitmonchan can take a non crit close combat/high jump kick and OHKO with counter.

Ran the calcs, out of curiosity.

Each using their best move in the scenario.

Hitmonlee using Close Combat, without a Crit, does 76.3-90% damage to Hitmonchan. It MUST Crit to be a OHKO. Hitmonchan using Counter on a Hitmonlee that just used Close Combat is a guaranteed OHKO. Since the chance of Close Combat doing a Crit is less than 50%, Hitmonchan wins a majority of the time.

EDIT: Checked Hi Jump Kick, just in case. Hi Jump Kick also cannot OHKO without a Crit, its range is only 82.5-97.5%.

Hi Jump Punch solos.

Assuming no items, neutral natures, no EV investment, and I guess no egg moves/TMs to even it out...

Fake Out for chip into Close Combat has a chance to two turn KO, but Endure into Reversal give Hitmonlee an easy OHKO. Hitmonchan without punches gives it no priority, so it's safe to use.

Phanir posted...

but Endure into Reversal give Hitmonlee an easy OHKO.

Only if Hitmonchan actually attacks, which, assuming the best case scenario for either, it'd have no reason to, with Counter. Hitmonlee would have to be placed under 10.42% HP before Reversal becomes its best attack, and since Hitmonchan really has no reason to actually attack, the Endure strategy is very fallible.

StealThisSheen posted...

Only if Hitmonchan actually attacks, which, assuming the best case scenario for either, it'd have no reason to, with Counter. Hitmonlee would have to be placed under 10.42% HP before Reversal becomes its best attack, and since Hitmonchan really has no reason to actually attack, the Endure strategy is very fallible.

Easy win using Fake Out, Tackle, then CC if you're going Counter only because "Hitmonchan really has no reason to actually attack."

Wait how does Hitmonlee breed...does he......

Phanir posted...

Easy win using Fake Out, Tackle, then CC if you're going Counter only because "Hitmonchan really has no reason to actually attack."

Using Tackle is literally going Big Brain strats that make no sense to use.

Now, running the calcs the other way... Hitmonchan CAN OHKO with Close Combat, without a Crit, which Hitmonlee cannot do. If we're going to "Big Brain" things, if Hitmonlee goes Fake Out and then Tackle, Hitmonchan uses Agility, which puts its speed above Hitmonlee, and OHKOs with Close Combat.

The point is Hitmonchan has no reason to attack first, being a more defensive Pokemon. Hitmonchan's defensive-oriented stats makes it more likely to Counter or buff, whereas Hitmonlee's offense-oriented stats make more sense to attack.

I don't get what Hitmonchan is supposed to do against a Hitmonlee with Focus Sash, Close Combat, Face Out and a priority move

Close Combat 2HKOs even the most bulkiest Chan

Imagine a real life kickboxer vs a boxer but where the kickboxer can't kick and the boxer can't punch. The end result will always be an easy win for the kickboxer because kickboxers are still good at general martial arts while boxers are only good at punching.