Current Events > GRR Martin slams writers for adaptations: "They never make it better."

(+) Yeah! (+)

"Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and make them their own. It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or well, anyone.

"No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and 'improve' on it.

"'The book is the book, the film is the film,' they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse."

Martin, who is currently writing The Winds of Winter, did list an adaptation that he felt was worthy of praise, lauding FXs Shogun for being faithful to the source material as it resisted the impulse to make it their own.

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a60918002/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-slams-writers-adaptations/

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/89e7f788.jpg

As usual, the headline is misleading. He's specifically criticizing scriptwriters who take an existing work and "make it their own" because they think they can do a better job of it.

Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and make them their own. It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or well, anyone.

A bit funny to bring in Fleming when the last Bond movie to actually try and adapt his novels was fucking fantastic. Showing your age there, Martin >_>

pegusus123456 posted...

As usual, the headline is misleading. He's specifically criticizing scriptwriters who take an existing work and "make it their own" because they think they can do a better job of it.

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He says exactly what the headline implies. Same thing we say about shows like Rings of Power, Wheel of Time and Halo.

Fony posted...

????????????????!!!!!!!?????????????????

He says exactly what the headline implies. Same thing we say about shows like Rings of Power, Wheel of Time and Halo.

The headline implies he's criticizing the concept of adaptations as a whole to make people share the article and go, "Huhuehue big talk from someone who had his adaptation ruined huehuehue."

Martin, who is currently writing The Winds of Winter, did list an adaptation that he felt was worthy of praise, lauding FXs Shogun for being faithful to the source material as it resisted the impulse to make it their own.

Is he sure he actually read the book and/or watched the FX series? Because they absolutely did not remain faithful and made it their own. They're even going to do another season.

Not that I think that's a bad thing. The FX series is better than the book.

Anti-localization?

Planet of the Apes Film was so good most people don't even know it was an adaptation

The only reason they do it is because having a major name attached to it sells (LotR, WoT, Halo). If any of these hack screenwriters wrote their original work no one would watch past the first episode.

Hell, no one would watch past "why does the stone sink." I've read fanfics way better than what the billion-dollar projects have crapped out.

Martin, who is currently writing The Winds of Winter,

Bit of wishful thinking there

I mean, hes right. The pattern is well defined:

1. Adapt a well known, beloved story/property

2. Completely ignore the reasons why people loved it in the first place.

3. Make massive changes under the pretense of "appealing to the mass audience," while taking the core fans for granted.

4. Blame the core fans when the adaptation underperformed, despite openly and brazenly not trying to appeal to them.

The problem is that they're trying to make it better.

I'm not really the biggest fan of adaptations in general. I wish there were less of them and more original tv series. Most books are hard to make a great 1:1 adaptation out them. There's so much detail in them, that you're better off just reading the book instead.

Unfortunately, studios are all about safe bets going for adaptations and getting that built-in audience of the book readers watching. They don't want to take a risk with something original too often, so I don't see this trend changing anytime soon.

I'm sure there's a lot of writers in Hollywood that wish they were writing for an originally created series and not feel tied down to having to adapt already established work. I like to think that's why writers in general suck nowadays. They can't write good original ideas, characters, storylines anymore, because the chances they get are fewer and farther in-between. And they force their original ideas into adaptations to try and stand out as writer, and end up failing most of the time.

I don't the know, I think the system of making good movies and TV series is fucked up at the moment. It's been like this for a long while, and I blame the greedy CEO's for causing all this.

all these remakes are just paving the way for something original like RRR which was a pretty awesome movie

LeCh0nk posted...

The only reason they do it is because having a major name attached to it sells (LotR, WoT, Halo). If any of these hack screenwriters wrote their original work no one would watch past the first episode.

Hell, no one would watch past "why does the stone sink." I've read fanfics way better than what the billion-dollar projects have crapped out.

Bit of wishful thinking there

yep.

SAlYAN posted...

I mean, hes right. The pattern is well defined:

1. Adapt a well known, beloved story/property

2. Completely ignore the reasons why people loved it in the first place.

3. Make massive changes under the pretense of "appealing to the mass audience," while taking the core fans for granted.

4. Blame the core fans when the adaptation underperformed, despite openly and brazenly not trying to appeal to them.

Bah, he just jelly that they actually finished what they set out to do...

Following the source material is lava. Why follow the source material when you can have an inflated ego. Then blame the fans for not liking your adaptation.

I've been saying this for years

Beany posted...

No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and 'improve' on it.

They're called editors. Ha!

Dude is the biggest troll.

"I'll finish Winds of Winter"

"These adaptations are shit"

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/ce65d139.jpg

DuuuDe14 posted...

Following the source material is lava. Why follow the source material when you can have an inflated ego. Then blame the fans for not liking your adaptation.

I've been saying this for years

Yea and it's not like you can't tell your own story while respecting the source and staying true to it ala the best and most successful recent adaptation(Fallout).

I hate adaptations where they basically just write their own story and then slap on some characters you recognize

Beany posted...

Martin, who is currently writing The Winds of Winter

Is he though?

Are the LotR movies considered adaptations?

St0rmFury posted...

Are the LotR movies considered adaptations?

Yes?

St0rmFury posted...

Are the LotR movies considered adaptations?

Well there are two ways to look at it. First perspective is, the books were written decades before the movies and it's unlikely that Peter Jackson and co accidentally came up with so many details that were similar or even exactly the same.

The other perspective is DURRRRRRRR

Fight Club and LOTR are goat adaptations

St0rmFury posted...

Are the LotR movies considered adaptations?

The reason those are so good is because Peter Jackson loved the source material, and didn't try to make it his own. Yes, he adapted it for the big screen and that inherently came with changes, but he understood what made the books what it was, and kept to that vision.

This is something modern screenwriters refuse to understand. Their "work" is coming from a place of profit, and it shows.

It's rare but sometimes an adaption is superior to the source.

The boys comes to mind.

LeCh0nk posted...

This is something modern screenwriters refuse to understand. Their "work" is coming from a place of profit, and it shows.

Partially. Making a decent adaptation would be more profitable than the garbage they continually churn out. The other influence is that they're full of themselves and want their crappy ideas on the big screen.

The way these things come together is somebody with crappy ideas buying a license in hopes of making more money while still being hell-bent on those crappy ideas.

bla bla bla bla bla bla blaaaaaa

Fony posted...

????????????????!!!!!!!?????????????????

He says exactly what the headline implies. Same thing we say about shows like Rings of Power, Wheel of Time and Halo.

Wheel of Time wasn't even a case of writers thinking they could do better. It was a case of executives wanting something vastly different from the source. Amazon wanted a Game of Thrones and despite Wheel Of time having a vastly different tone and feel they had the writers and crew turn it into a Game of Thrones.

I believe in blaming the right people. Sometimes the writers are to blame but many times they are doing their best with a bad hand.

I guess he's mad that D&D adapted his work and made it terrible?

Well, if he had stayed on task and finished his books, there would have been a better road map to adapt.

Also, he chose poorly when choosing who to adapt his book series. D&D hated the fantasy parts of his series, and tossed them out.

Yeah the mat and teleport crap......man that was anger inducing. Why would you introduce a plot device that doesn't get used by the heroes 5 books down the road. It's only used by Forsaken at this point and they don't use rings or rods.

First thing that comes to mind is Netflix avatar removing character flaws (that the characters grow from in the cartoon) and thinking it makes the character more likeable. Yeah, it was kinda lame that Aang ran away from his duties. We're just gonna remove that plot point, but still have him monologue about it.

Beany posted...

Martin, who is currently writing The Winds of Winter,

(X) Doubt

SAlYAN posted...

I mean, hes right. The pattern is well defined:

1. Adapt a well known, beloved story/property

2. Completely ignore the reasons why people loved it in the first place.

3. Make massive changes under the pretense of "appealing to the mass audience," while taking the core fans for granted.

4. Blame the core fans when the adaptation underperformed, despite openly and brazenly not trying to appeal to them.

Exactly

Squall28 posted...

First thing that comes to mind is Netflix avatar removing character flaws (that the characters grow from in the cartoon) and thinking it makes the character more likeable. Yeah, it was kinda lame that Aang ran away from his duties. We're just gonna remove that plot point, but still have him monologue about it.

the changes to the female characters are so bad.......wow.

creativerealms posted...

Wheel of Time wasn't even a case of writers thinking they could do better. It was a case of executives wanting something vastly different from the source. Amazon wanted a Game of Thrones and despite Wheel Of time having a vastly different tone and feel they had the writers and crew turn it into a Game of Thrones

Seriously, this.

I'll actually take it further, and say that Game of Thrones is responsible for a LOT of the shitty adaptations we get, today. Studios learned all the wrong lessons from its success.

St0rmFury posted...

Are the LotR movies considered adaptations?

Yes, but I don't think the LotR movies are the thung GRR Martin talked about.

(For me) there is a big difference between taking a book, and making a film out of it (LotR or the Harry Potter movies), and taking a book and "improving" it.

Sometimes you have to cut some stuff or explain it a bit different because a 5 seconds in a book could be writen on 5 pages, or 5 lines are enough to waste 5 minutes of screen time.

The 1 image vs. 1000 words thing is real, and is something that has to be taken into account, so changes are not bad by default.

But when an editor or screen writer comes, takes a popular work, and changes so much that it can't be seen as even similat anymore? That's just a presumptuous ego at work.

Even the thought that "they" could improve or even replicate a work of a legend like Tolkien is just crazy.

If they could, they would not need to take these books as a basis, and could create a original masterpiece.

Perhaps he should stop worrying about what other writers are doing and instead finish his book series.

You can change everything from a source and make it work. If you are as talented as Paul Verhoeven. Most people are not Paul Verhoeven. Most people can't adapt a piece of literature they hate and still create something great.

Ultimately I care less about accuracy and more about quality. Again to bring up the boys, the TV show and comics really only have the names of characters in common and the basic premise. Past that they are nothing alike. While the comics have their fans, I am not one of them. I feel the show is great because It does it's own thing.

The Avatar the Last Airbender LA show felt soulless. While on a technical level it did every right it waa just lacking something. It did make the characters too perfect, removing most flaws, and taking away growth. While Avatar and LA One Piece were just as well made, One Piece had one advantage, it had a soul. The characters felt real, they felt flawed yet likable. Even if some of the straw hats needed more development in those eight episodes all of them felt more or less like real people, will in a surreal world.

I didn't hate LA Avatar but what makes a show a 7/10 and what makes it a 9/10 goes to how much I like the characters, how real the world feela, and how much I believe it. Both looked good and were well made but Avatar failed while One Piece succeeded.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-writers-top-10-fantasy-films

Martin did talk about the Peter Jackson's (set of) film adaptations for LotR, making it known that it's his top fantasy film and that "it's as faithful and reverent an adaptation as could ever have been hoped for." So I think this falls into that 0.001% category of adaptations that work. Even then though, Martin acknowledges some of the liberties Jackson took. It's interesting that he doesn't mention one word about the Harry Potter film adaptations here... lol.

How he would feel about say... Amazon's Rings of Power, that's another question. I think considering he's more talking about adaptations that have come out around 2022, he probably has absolutely nothing nice to say about it...

Wrath_Of_Spiral posted...

How he would feel about say... Amazon's Rings of Power, that's another question. I think considering he's more talking about adaptations that have come out around 2022, he probably has absolutely nothing nice to say about it...

He's almost assuredly talking about his own series from seasons 6-8, and everything that came after. Especially ones where the original author isn't heavily involved.

LeCh0nk posted...

He's almost assuredly talking about his own series from seasons 6-8, and everything that came after. Especially ones where the original author isn't heavily involved.

He could have been heavily involved, but chose not to.

He could have chosen other people. but chose not to.

Hopefully he learns his lesson with Hot D.

He's 100% right, especially with GoT and Hot D where there are massive changes for the worse.

the iconic ending to planet of the apes was not in its original book

the countless adaptions of hercules all make changes

changes happen in adaptions all the time and have forever

thats party of storytelling

you can be critical of an adaption for sure just dont forget many stories that you enjoy and where inspired by where very likely altered at somepoint

mystic_belmont posted...

I guess he's mad that D&D adapted his work and made it terrible?

Well, if he had stayed on task and finished his books, there would have been a better road map to adapt.

People always say this but D&D had a ton of book material left to adapt that they chose not to.

Also, he chose poorly when choosing who to adapt his book series. D&D hated the fantasy parts of his series, and tossed them out.

Most definitely. I wish they had transferred control to someone else after season 4.

AceMos posted...

the iconic ending to planet of the apes was not in its original book

the countless adaptions of hercules all make changes

changes happen in adaptions all the time and have forever

thats party of storytelling

you can be critical of an adaption for sure just dont forget many stories that you enjoy and where inspired by where very likely altered at somepoint

Arthur C Clarke, the author of 2001, actually liked Stanley Kubrick's change of placing the final monolith on Jupiter instead of Japetus so much that his own sequel made that retcon.

Jurassic Park left out a ton of detail that wouldn't have worked on the big screen

And the comic book ending of Watchmen was bizarre with the movie's ending being both simpler and more believable.

But these are the exceptions. What frequently happens is the filmmakers buy a license for the built-in audience and then proceed to ignore the source almost entirely. This is how you end up with dystopian Super Mario Bros, whatever the hell Double Dragon was, asshat Superman, the entire story of The Hobbit 1 (and whatever happened in the other movies I had too much sense to watch), and about a trillion other examples of adaptations that really cannot be defended at all.

I mean he is right just look at shit like the Rings of Power. If a bunch of idiot showrunners think they can do that to Tolkien's world, it is open season on everything.

Though I would definitely contend the "never" part of the statement. There have been some adaptions that were good or better than their source material, just not many.