Current Events > Why is killing the enemy such an issue in American comics?

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#51
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Tyranthraxus
03/14/24 2:24:11 PM
#52:


GiftedACIII posted...
As long as the original main protagonist's story is wrapped up, time jumps (for new main protagonists), spin offs, and reboots/alternate dimensions all still have the original story ending. Although if the same story gets rebooted dozens of times that becomes a problem too.

If you're only sticking to anime it might not seem like this is a thing but in manga it totally is.

Let's look at Saint Seiya for a moment.
  1. The original comic started in 1985 and is still ongoing. The most current run is Saint Seiya: Next Dimension which while Kurumada claims is almost done somehow it's been going on since 2006 at a Hunter x Hunter pace.
  2. While that was going on other artists have gone into the mix creating The Lost Canvas. Lost Canvas Gaiden, Episode G, Episode G Assassin, Saintia Sh, and Mei Iden.
  3. Then there's a comic from French artists called "Time Odyssey"
  4. There's also a light novel series Gigantomachia
  5. Now let's take a look at the Anime (Galaxian Wars through Hades: Elysium). The main series anime contains a massive filler arc called Asgard. They would later use this filler arc as the basis for the spin off series Soul of Gold. There's also Saint Seiya Omega which is basically the Dragonball GT of this franchise, and a God awful Netflix original anime. The lost canvas got an anime as well and generally most people consider it the best one
  6. But it's not done there! We gotta talk about movies! Then there's several movies based on the original series. The heaven overture movie which was supposed to be a continuation of Hades: Elysium but..... Ehh don't feel like opening that can of worms right now. Then there's the 3D legend of sanctuary movie, and even the live action movie!
This has resulted in a canonical clusterfuck of continuity. While everyone kinda just says only Kurumada drawn shit is canon, he's got the benefit of still being alive to make comics. Superman lore would be kind of boring if we said only Jerry Siegel comics are canon.

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xlr_big-coop
03/14/24 2:26:56 PM
#53:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This. They have to come up with absolutely stupid plot points to restore the status quo, like spiderman and one more day

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GiftedACIII
03/14/24 2:40:03 PM
#54:


Tyranthraxus posted...
If you're only sticking to anime it might not seem like this is a thing but in manga it totally is.

Let's look at Saint Seiya for a moment.
1. The original comic started in 1985 and is still ongoing. The most current run is Saint Seiya: Next Dimension which while Kurumada claims is almost done somehow it's been going on since 2006 at a Hunter x Hunter pace.
2. While that was going on other artists have gone into the mix creating The Lost Canvas. Lost Canvas Gaiden, Episode G, Episode G Assassin, Saintia Sh, and Mei Iden.
3. Then there's a comic from French artists called "Time Odyssey"
4. There's also a light novel series Gigantomachia
5. Now let's take a look at the Anime (Galaxian Wars through Hades: Elysium). The main series anime contains a massive filler arc called Asgard. They would later use this filler arc as the basis for the spin off series Soul of Gold. There's also Saint Seiya Omega which is basically the Dragonball GT of this franchise, and a God awful Netflix original anime. The lost canvas got an anime as well and generally most people consider it the best one
6. But it's not done there! We gotta talk about movies! Then there's several movies based on the original series. The heaven overture movie which was supposed to be a continuation of Hades: Elysium but..... Ehh don't feel like opening that can of worms right now. Then there's the 3D legend of sanctuary movie, and even the live action movie!
This has resulted in a canonical clusterfuck of continuity. While everyone kinda just says only Kurumada drawn shit is canon, he's got the benefit of still being alive to make comics. Superman lore would be kind of boring if we said only Jerry Siegel comics are canon.

I'm aware there's quite a few series that are long-running (although you seem to be jumping across multiple mediums in that post). I'm just saying that time jumps into new protagonists, spin-offs, and alternate dimension/reboots all end the original run and I prefer that than following the same character for decades. Of course, by that measure, repeated alternate dimension/reboots of the same character gets too much as well.

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Tyranthraxus
03/14/24 2:48:49 PM
#55:


GiftedACIII posted...
I'm aware there's quite a few series that are long-running (although you seem to be jumping across multiple mediums in that post). I'm just saying that time jumps into new protagonists, spin-offs, and alternate dimension/reboots all end the original run and I prefer that than following the same character for decades. Of course, by that measure, repeated alternate dimension/reboots of the same character gets too much as well.

I'm just saying it's not like manga is one guy from Start to finish 100% of the time. It can and does mirror Western comics which are done up by multiple authors at the same time with different ideas, some comics get animated, some don't, some animation is original and has no comic, and auxiliary non comic/animation material exists.

The stuff being complained about here in the West is predominantly just "Big 2" comics. That's not the case for most comics. Only the most popular ones.

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Sheiky-Baby
03/14/24 2:51:39 PM
#56:


Well, there's Dragon Ball. And some of the villains have been brought back like Frieza, Broly, and Cell. I think a better question would be, is this guy better for business dead, or alive? Guys like Joker are worth way more alive. Atleast in the comics. He actually died in the 1989 film.

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ellis123
03/14/24 2:53:14 PM
#57:


Sheiky-Baby posted...
Guys like Joker are worth way more alive. Atleast in the comics. He actually died in the 1989 film.
The Joker died in his second appearance in the comics.

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Sheiky-Baby
03/14/24 2:57:38 PM
#58:


ellis123 posted...
The Joker died in his second appearance in the comics.

Sheiky-Baby posted...
I think a better question would be, is this guy better for business dead, or alive? Guys like Joker are worth way more alive.


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GiftedACIII
03/14/24 2:58:23 PM
#59:


Tyranthraxus posted...
I'm just saying it's not like manga is one guy from Start to finish 100% of the time. It can and does mirror Western comics which are done up by multiple authors at the same time with different ideas, some comics get animated, some don't, some animation is original and has no comic, and auxiliary non comic/animation material exists.

The stuff being complained about here in the West is predominantly just "Big 2" comics. That's not the case for most comics. Only the most popular ones.

And I don't read those manga either. I didn't complain about any western comic, I just mentioned my own preferences. You should reread my posts in the topic since I think you confused them with other people's posts.

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Guide
03/14/24 3:01:24 PM
#60:


To be fair, it's not that DC or Marvel have single, continuous storylines. They're more a series of stories that they decide to say happened in the same continuum, except for when they don't, except for when they do. There's an obsession with officially pretending like it's all one big universe, even when consistency is never a thing beyond individual storylines, and sometimes not even then.

The only difference between Batman villains dying or not is that the dead villain timelines are treated as their own isolated canons... Unless it's time to restart the multiverse again, then some author down the line may decide "oh actually that did happen, but now it didn't happen."

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Foppe
03/14/24 3:01:34 PM
#61:


Joker have cheated death so many times.

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Sheiky-Baby
03/14/24 3:03:47 PM
#62:


Japan actually have their own multiverses as well, but only in those cross-over fighting games like JUMP Ultimate Stars. Loved that game on the DS.

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ellis123
03/14/24 3:08:34 PM
#63:


Sheiky-Baby posted...
Japan actually have their own multiverses as well, but only in those cross-over fighting games like JUMP Ultimate Stars. Loved that game on the DS.
Super Sentai.

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LonelyStoner
03/14/24 3:10:40 PM
#64:


The writers of Batman are the biggest offenders of this trope. They think Bruce killing the Joker to save thousands of lives would make him as insane as the Joker (even though Bruce is already pretty nutty). I dont think Batman would ever get to a place as bad as Joker, so I have qualms with that argument on many fronts.

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Foppe
03/14/24 3:12:39 PM
#65:


Sheiky-Baby posted...
Japan actually have their own multiverses as well, but only in those cross-over fighting games like JUMP Ultimate Stars. Loved that game on the DS.
Or RPGs on the Nes.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/f/f24c780b.jpg

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MarcyWarcy
03/14/24 3:16:44 PM
#66:


idk why people read stuff mostly meant for children and teenagers and get so confused and huffy about a common message in them being "killing people is bad." if you want to read or watch stuff with philosophical nuance there's a ton of stuff out there for you, you just have to stop being shy and step out of your spandex and cal arts comfort zone

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s0nicfan
03/14/24 3:17:48 PM
#67:


LonelyStoner posted...
The writers of Batman are the biggest offenders of this trope. They think Bruce killing the Joker to save thousands of lives would make him as insane as the Joker (even though Bruce is already pretty nutty). I dont think Batman would ever get to a place as bad as Joker, so I have qualms with that argument on many fronts.

Never underestimate Marvel/DC's ability to tell awful stories based around what-ifs like this:
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Earth_-22)


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ellis123
03/14/24 3:21:06 PM
#68:


s0nicfan posted...
Never underestimate Marvel/DC's ability to tell awful stories based around what-ifs like this:
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Earth_-22)
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/20891d8f.jpg

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DnDer
03/14/24 4:59:56 PM
#69:


MarcyWarcy posted...
cal arts

There's a moving target, if ever there was one.

Also, given how it was coined it, what it turned into, and why, it's evolved into a dog whistle for... bad people with bad political opinions... in case you're not aware. With how you used it, maybe you are.

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garan
03/14/24 5:03:10 PM
#70:


Southernfatman posted...
So villains can be kept alive forever and writers don't have to come up with new ones.


This.
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superbot400
03/14/24 5:05:57 PM
#71:


Damn_Underscore posted...
Japanese anime/manga heroes dont have this issue at all, and their worlds are better off for it
I dont know what comics you read but thats not accurate at all. Its the Big two. Even if you do kill a villian, they can come back

Secondly being aganist the death penalty isnt a crazy position. There are murders that got light penalties in real life. I dont understand why people think its surprising that some heroes do not want to kill.


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superbot400
03/14/24 5:08:45 PM
#72:


-ZIO- posted...
Vegeta was a villain. Frieza is a villain. Buu was a villain.

Come on, man. This ain't it.
Also people are lying out of their teeth if they think Japanese writer avoid killing certain characters because theyre popular.

This topic is an excuse to whine about American Comics.

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MarcyWarcy
03/14/24 6:43:17 PM
#73:


DnDer posted...
There's a moving target, if ever there was one.

Also, given how it was coined it, what it turned into, and why, it's evolved into a dog whistle for... bad people with bad political opinions... in case you're not aware. With how you used it, maybe you are.

i dont really care about the politics of cartoons, or even really how they look most of the time, so i am totally uninterested in what that has come to mean with evil people on twitter. i'm most of them are made with very simplistic moral messages in mind, which is absolutely fine, but too many people tend to fall down a rabbit hole of demanding that cartoons of that style grow up along with them when those moral messages begin to feel hollow and cater to them instead of the demographics they have always been made for.

if you can enjoy cartoons as an adult, cool, i can too. but people expected stuff like steven universe to end with the villains in the hague, when in reality they would be better served at looking at other mediums for that kind of content.

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-ZIO-
03/14/24 7:50:01 PM
#74:


Man, Bleach was also infamous for being agnostic of letting anyone die.

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