Current Events > Trump's national abortion ban plan got leaked.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ubergeneral3 posted...

why is he even giving up 16 weeks? I thought he was against it.

I doubt he gives a rats ass personally, hes just performing for what his worshipers want to hear.

Blue_Inigo posted...

Sucks I gotta choose between the racist old man contributing to a genocide and the racist old man who also is down for contributing to a genocide

I don't like Biden either but how is he a racist?

Dark_Arbron posted...

I doubt he gives a rats ass personally, hes just performing for what his worshipers want to hear.

They don't actually want to hear this. It's a losing unpopular opinion.

Biden voters should be ecstatic.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

I don't like Biden either but how is he a racist?

He's supply weapons for a genocide based on race.

Blue_Inigo posted...

Sucks I gotta choose between the racist old man contributing to a genocide and the racist old man who also is down for contributing to a genocide

I mean, one of them is also a rapist and criminal. But you knew that.

But Palestine!

Dark_Arbron posted...

I mean, one of them is also a rapist and criminal. But you knew that.

Would that change anything in a comparison of hypothetical Hitler who didn't personally commit rape and rapist Hitler?

ButteryMales posted...

Would that change anything in a comparison of hypothetical Hitler who didn't personally commit rape and rapist Hitler?

Wtf

ButteryMales posted...

Would that change anything in a comparison of hypothetical Hitler who didn't personally commit rape and rapist Hitler?

Its okay, read my post again. And again. As many times as you need to before you understand it.

ButteryMales posted...

Would that change anything in a comparison of hypothetical Hitler who didn't personally commit rape and rapist Hitler?

Maybe it's because I don't post much but I actually struggle to parse if this is satirical.

Naughtol posted...

Maybe it's because I don't post much but I actually struggle to parse if this is satirical.

Its ButteryMales so hes probably serious.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Its okay, read my post again. And again. As many times as you need to before you understand it.

Your post was just ridiculous.

Rape is one of the worst crimes you can do. I sincerely doubt there were no rapes in the holocaust and there are accusations of Israeli Defense Forces committing rape on female prisoners.

Once someone is involved in genocide, they're involved in rape, and committed a crime as well.

Naughtol posted...

Maybe it's because I don't post much but I actually struggle to parse if this is satirical.

It's not. He just has no clue what he's talking about about.

SecretBase posted...

He should ease it back to 20 weeks, around a month before the fetus can gain consciousness/feel pain.

Fetuses can't feel pain. Not at that point in development. That's Silent Scream disinformation.

Pain is a complex phenomenon. The perception of pain requires more than just the mechanical transmission and reception of signals. Multidisciplinary experts on the subject define pain as is "[a]n unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with, or resembling that associated with, actual or potential tissue damage."vii The experience of pain "requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus."viii This capacity does not develop until the third trimester at the earliest. The evidence shows that the neural circuitry necessary to distinguish touch from painful touch does not, in fact, develop until late in the third trimester. The occurrence of intrauterine fetal movement is not an indication that a fetus can feel pain.ix

SOURCE: https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/gestational-development-capacity-for-pain

Vigero posted...

It's scientifically considered a living organism.

Just going to skim down to the end of the page to see how many people roast you for the tacit admission that a fetus is not a baby because you had to default to "organism."

It undercuts every argument you thought you could make.

I'm gonna make some popcorn, have a few laughs, and be back in a minute after checking out your absolute murder over that statement.

SecretBase posted...

Most women discover their preganicies within the first 8 weeks.

No.

Just. No.

No they don't.

(You're citing an average time. And I've got a half dozen sources that say anything from five weeks to "maybe 8 weeks, but doctors need to test more," and one that says only 1 in 3 women know by 8 weeks. You're making a blanket statement that is looking at a curve and making an unsafe assumption, given the conditions surrounding abortion access in America.)

SecretBase posted...

What GOP governors are pushing is 6 week bans since that's when fetuses gain heartbeats.

They're 100% wrong about that, too. There's electrical impulses that mimic a heartbeat.

The heart, as an organ, doesn't exist let alone beat like you or I think of a heartbeat until 25-50 days in (5-9 weeks) when the pulp-S-thing that will be a heart begins to have chambers to properly pump blood through it.

And week six, during that partitioning, is when the muscle starts properly pulsing and pumping in a way you or I (or a rational, non-republican) would define as a heartbeat.

SOURCES: https://open.oregonstate.education/aandp/chapter/19-5-development-of-the-heart/

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/7247-fetal-development-stages-of-growth

ButteryMales posted...

Your post was just ridiculous.

Rape is one of the worst crimes you can do. I sincerely doubt there were no rapes in the holocaust and there are accusations of Israeli Defense Forces committing rape on female prisoners.

Once someone is involved in genocide, they're involved in rape, and committed a crime as well.

Ill give you a hint. Read the post I was replying to and maybe then youll understand. Or feel free to continue down this rabbit hole.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Ill give you a hint. Read the post I was replying to and maybe then youll understand. Or feel free to continue down this rabbit hole.

I don't remember anything about Blue_Inigo. I don't know why it is important for you to point out Trump is a rapist and a criminal in comparison to Biden supplying weapons for a genocide.

It does suck those are the Democrat's and Republican's respective candidates.

DnDer posted...

Fetuses can't feel pain. Not at that point in development. That's Silent Scream disinformation.

Thank you for the correction.

DnDer posted...

No.

Just. No.

No they don't.

(You're citing an average time. And I've got a half dozen sources that say anything from five weeks to "maybe 8 weeks, but doctors need to test more," and one that says only 1 in 3 women know by 8 weeks. You're making a blanket statement that is looking at a curve and making an unsafe assumption, given the conditions surrounding abortion access in America.)

I wasn't citing an average. The average I read is 6 weeks. With 8 weeks being when a more sizable majority (80%+) has found out.

But even if these dozen sources are wrong or I terribly misread them it doesn't mean much in context since the discussion is referring to 16 week deadlines. The amount of women who don't know by then is almost certainly a low single digit percentage.

DnDer posted...

They're 100% wrong about that, too. There's electrical impulses that mimic a heartbeat.

I suppose. I'm sure whatever's happening in there isn't remotely similar to what's happening out here. But I assume they're arguing from sentiment.

SecretBase posted...

But I assume they're arguing from sentiment

They do argue from sentiment. But they present it as science. Literally, they use monitors and graphics to present the false impression of a heartbeat without explaining (or caring?) that there's no actual heart.

@SecretBase

I suppose. I'm sure whatever's happening in there isn't remotely similar to what's happening out here. But I assume they're arguing from sentiment.

I mean if the bulk of anti-abortion folks were operating under legit concern, like I suggested, why aren't services caring for abandoned children given more concern. Donations, volunteering to help out and such?

And yeah I have to go there and suggest that children abuse and neglect are cause of couples pressured to have children. Coupled with attempts to make birth control available.

@DnDer

They do argue from sentiment. But they present it as science. Literally, they use monitors and graphics to present the false impression of a heartbeat without explaining (or caring?) that there's no actual heart.

There is also the notion that people who have their own kids will for sure develop the nurturing instincts and desires if they go through with having a kid. Problems mentioned in the paragraph above showing otherwise.

SecretBase posted...

I wasn't citing an average. The average I read is 6 weeks. With 8 weeks being when a more sizable majority (80%+) has found out.

But even if these dozen sources are wrong or I terribly misread them it doesn't mean much in context since the discussion is referring to 16 week deadlines. The amount of women who don't know by then is almost certainly a low single digit percentage.

How about you give us the sources so we can determine how much they mean? Every post you've made means nothing because they have no credible sources.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Oh goody. One of these.
I'll play. When is a being considered dead?

Anything that:

- has the ability to grow and reproduce
- has the potential to grow and reproduce if it isn't capable of doing so by default (i.e. eggs)

is scientifically considered a living organism.

A fetus by those definitions is exactly that. Even a singular cell is considered a living organism.

And organisms that are unable to live when being taken out of their environment are still considered living. It's why a leaf is still considered a living organism even though it dies when it falls from a tree.

So regardless whether people fall in the whole abortion debate - a fetus is technically a living organism and that is fact

Havent seen Vigero around for a while. Recently come off suspension or something?

Dark_Arbron posted...

Havent seen Vigero around for a while. Recently come off suspension or something?

I smell a 261 user.

Anyway, these are things you learn in the most basic of science courses and textbooks and it's pertinent information to this day.

So say if someone calls a fetus 'a clump of cell', they're not only not disproving that it's a living organism at all, they're doing the opposite - reaffirming that it is.

A cell grows a reproduces. It's a living organism. It's ancient knowledge.

Anyway, back to your foolishness.

Vigero posted...

It's why a leaf is still considered a living organism even though it dies when it falls from a tree.

So regardless whether people fall in the whole abortion debate - a fetus is technically a living organism and that is fact

Why should people care when they don't care about the leaf?

Vigero posted...

I smell a 261 user.

Cool.

Antiyonder posted...

I mean if the bulk of anti-abortion folks were operating under legit concern, like I suggested, why aren't services caring for abandoned children given more concern. Donations, volunteering to help out and such?

Conservative philosophy holds that charitable functions should be managed by the private sector.

I personally support a far more robust safety net than what the major parties promote, so I'm not equipped to answer in-depth.

Antiyonder posted...

And yeah I have to go there and suggest that children abuse and neglect are cause of couples pressured to have children. Coupled with attempts to make birth control available.

I think what makes people bad parents was always inside them either way, but it's true some wouldn't get the opportunity to begin with if not for being forced to actually have the kid.

ButteryMales posted...

How about you give us the sources so we can determine how much they mean? Every post you've made means nothing because they have no credible sources.

You haven't posted any either. I'm not particularly interested in reporting to someone who's already taken a dismissive tone. Google's available if you're interested.

SecretBase posted...

You haven't posted any either. I'm not particularly interested in reporting to someone who's already taken a dismissive tone. Google's available if you're interested.

My first post was sourcing Google sourcing Wikipedia. You know you could have asked me for a source? You didn't ask because what I've said is obviously true.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/11/abortion-midterm-elections-republicans-women-voters

Whether a fetus qualifies as a living organism is irrelevant.

Not only is the matter between the pregnant individual, (usually) their partner and the medical professionals, but those who argue you cant kill it, its a person! are almost always arguing in bad faith because they oppose funding for maternity care and birth control measures that would help avoid unwanted pregnancies to begin with.

Hence the term pro-birth being more accurate than pro-life.

SecretBase posted...

Most women discover their preganicies within the first 8 weeks.

Many do, many dont.

@SecretBase

Conservative philosophy holds that charitable functions should be managed by the private sector.

I don't know. If the safety of children is that important that anti-abortion laws are made, one should be willing to go the extra mile.

SecretBase posted...

Conservative philosophy holds that charitable functions should be managed by the private sector.

And only affordable by the rich.
And only to the in-group (straight white Christian men in this case).

Dark_Arbron posted...

And only affordable by the rich.
And only to the in-group (straight white Christian men in this case).

Yeah and that's why I suggested the idea that any voting on abortion rights should entail that voting against it means agreeing to support numerous children that will be neglected/abandoned and/or abuse.

Maybe some would do so, but the majority of people beforehand claiming their stance on the issue is for positive reasons? They will back down if the choice means having to contribute financially.

I don't know. I feel like it's for the same reason people are down on LGBTQ+ rights. Basically vain people wanting to do something for recognition, well as long as it's not a risk (physical or financial).

Insomnia sucks.

SecretBase posted...

Conservative philosophy holds that charitable functions should be managed by the private sector.

It's hypocritical to push religious anti-choice philosophy like abortion bans yet not push the actually good anti-greed and charity philosophy into law.

Either "Pay on to Caesar that which is Caesar's. Pay on to God that which is God's" means pay your taxes and keep religion separate from law or theocracy should be law. You don't get to keep the crapabortion laws without the good social safety nets.

Antiyonder posted...

Yeah and that's why I suggested the idea that any voting on abortion rights should entail that voting against it means agreeing to support numerous children that will be neglected/abandoned and/or abuse.

Maybe some would do so, but the majority of people beforehand claiming their stance on the issue is for positive reasons? They will back down if the choice means having to contribute financially.

I don't know. I feel like it's for the same reason people are down on LGBTQ+ rights. Basically vain people wanting to do something for recognition, well as long as it's not a risk (physical or financial).

Foster care is a social safety net that already comes out of their pockets through taxes. It is completely legal to abandon infants anonymously at government buildings in an obvious place.

16 weeks is in the right direction.

Vigero posted...

It's scientifically considered a living organism.

A parasite is also a living organism.

Da-Etiquette posted...

16 weeks is in the right direction.

Please clarify. Which direction should it be going?

Any and all restrictions on abortion are hate crimes based on biological sex. There's absolutely no justification for women not being able to access the full range of medical services throughout their lives.

Cant believe there are women out there who are frickin pro Trump. Sheesh

An abortion is necessary if the mother wants one.

Axiom posted...

Every single vote on abortion in the states since row has shown just how much the public opinion runs counter to the GOPs

They just wont accept it. This is definitely a losing issue for them

Except people vote against their interests all the time in this country. Also, Trump supporters are so tfg that they'll just say this is fake news. See the dictator and terminating the constitution discourse.

Yes he says a 16 week national ban, but individual states can still outright ban it if they want under his plan. This will do nothing to hurt trump

Oh no, better stop eating because all our food is based on living things

Did I just hear Trump and plan in the same sentence

Vigero posted...

Anyway, these are things you learn in the most basic of science courses and textbooks and it's pertinent information to this day.

So say if someone calls a fetus 'a clump of cell', they're not only not disproving that it's a living organism at all, they're doing the opposite - reaffirming that it is.

A cell grows a reproduces. It's a living organism. It's ancient knowledge.

Anyway, back to your foolishness.

The only person making that argument in this topic is you.

thronedfire2 posted...

what does he think a round number is?

Apparently any even number

If conservatives really cared about reducing the number of abortions, they'd be in favor of comprehensive sex education and easy access to contraceptives. You know, things that actually work.

The fact that they are against those things as well tells me everything I need to know.

Zikten posted...

The problem is conservatives think a fetus has consciousness from the very beginning. My mom thinks fetuses try to escape from an abortion doctor's knife and that they feel fear. When they are barely formed. I blame the anti abortion propaganda that likes to show a baby inside a womb as a full 9 month baby.

No respectfully she's just not smart

Donald specifically mentioned so you know four weeks at the time.

No word on if there was a delay as someone did the multiplication for him. But he did appear to prefer having a whole number of months.