Current Events > Star Wars: Ahsoka Episode 8 Topic *SPOILERS*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Bruh did you close your eyes while Ahsoka fought Morgan?

slow and trash

Holy crap that was bad. Is Filoni incapable of writing smart characters?

Sabine gets force powers?

WTH?

Yeah i enjoyed the show but sabine was an unlikeable poorly written mess

Is Thrawn really as big a deal as he's being made out to be?

He accomplished litterally nothing in rebels. Achieving no major victory or kills against the main heroes, was ultimately outsmarted and beaten by a child, and so far has done nothing but run away like a little bitch while sprouting pseudo intellectual garbage all day.

And thr 'heroes thought they've won, but it was all apart of my plan' gimmick gets kind of old after while.

Also personally I'm kind of tired of them benching Luke for all these 'major' events.

They really need to make a Luke series at this point...

Necronmon posted...

They really need to make a Luke series at this point...

Not interested unless they commit to recasting

They either need to recast Luke or portray most of his adventures in a cartoon. Worked well for Clone Wars.

It is true that if they could not even bother to animate Zeb for even a portion of Ahoska then it does seem unlikely they would give a full CGI Luke show...unless its a cartoon...they might as well make it CGI animated, Mark Hamil can clearly still voice act so might as well use him while there's still a chance.

Prismsblade posted...

Is Thrawn really as big a deal as he's being made out to be?

No, he's one of the lamest SW baddies of all time

Blue_Popo posted...

Yeah i enjoyed the show but sabine was an unlikeable poorly written mess

I tried really hard not to be overly critical of Sabine and the 'stoic badass action woman' archetype while watching the show; I wasn't remotely that critical of Mando as a character, after all. But the core of this story (at least the first season) was 'we're going to risk our lives and the safety of our own galaxy to travel trillions of miles away in a desperate, one-in-a-million shot to rescue our long lost friend.' And a plot hook like that required more emotional weight than Sabine or Ahsoka were able to deliver for me to get truly invested in it.

Blue_Popo posted...

Yeah i enjoyed the show but sabine was an unlikeable poorly written mess

It's Star Wars.

Avirosb posted...

It's Star Wars.

True, but we now live in a post-Andor world where the bar has been raised for good writing and characterization, and Andor's still recent enough that one can't help but feel a little let down when a new SW show merely meets expectations in those categories.

Andor shouldn't be the bar set for Star Wars and I highly doubt it is for most fans.

Yes it should.

It absolutely should.

Why would you give true quality in storytelling and then tell people "don't get used to this"?

Punished_Blinx posted...

The biggest strength of this show is how much it's like the cartoons. It's a trip seeing all of these designs and even the same voice actors in some instances translate directly to live action. Seeing Hayden get to play Clone Wars Anakin especially was a lot of fun.

The biggest weakness of this show is how much it's like the cartoons. The motivations of these characters are paper thin and it doesn't have the breathing room of the cartoons to get you invested in any of these relationships with the content provided.

It's a fun experiment seeing someone who handled the cartoons transition to live action but I don't think it was a big success personally. Filoni is clearly a Star Wars fan and is passionate about the property. He's good with the big picture stuff and connecting pre-existing stuff in interesting ways. But to be frank he's good at iterating on foundations that others have already built and established. He's good at positioning the important things and utilizing them but he seems to have an issue making a story that's about why these things are important outside of fan service when given a more limited run time of a live action show.

The show is called Ahsoka and yet most of her character development happens when she fell into a magic doorway puddle to talk to Anakin. Why does she want an apprentice after she left the Jedi? What does she want Sabine to be? What does this journey actually mean to her as a character? What is her goal outside of stopping a bad guy?

Thrawn isn't exactly immune to this either. Why do the Empire remnants want to follow him? Ahsoka says early on they're loyal to the empire because of money. In that same episode people willingly give their lives to stop her from stopping the search for Thrawn. That doesn't seem to really be an accurate reasoning?

We get a little bit about how Thrawn likes authority. But what does that look like to him? Throughout Rebels he didn't seem to care much about anything other than besting his opponents in warfare. We didn't even really see his relation to the Emperor. What is his Empire supposed to even look or be like. Why should we the audience consider him to be some scary threat that's potentially worth stranding a hero over?

It's just all over the show. Sabine was willing to sacrifice everything to see Ezra. Why? I suppose it's because she lost her family and she made a promise to Ezra to find her. But again despite this being a 7ish hour show this is all just sorta skimmed over. We just have to roll with it and accept that this now means everything to her.

All of this is fine in a fun little cartoon. But it just feels pretty lacking when brought into a medium that's presumably supposed to be more adult. Especially when we're coming off Andor which is all about the why people do what they do.

Like I recognize that Andor is a high bar but this is pretty basic storytelling 101. Even Rey has a rather basic motivation of wanting to belong to something after being abandoned by her parents. It doesn't take much to give a human motivation to these characters outside of "I am a good guy who wants to help my friends and stop the bad guy."

Agree with all of this, particularly the bolded parts. I will add that I did like the way they characterized Thrawn, even if his motivation as a character feels pretty thin. His cold, calculated tactics come across pretty perfectly, and even if the rationalization of why his troops support him so steadfastly is nonsensical or hand-waved away, the characterization of that support is done well.

The lightsaber fights were well choreographed, although I think I prefer the one Ahsoka and Morgan had in Mando season 2 to the one they have in this finale. The best fight of all, for my money, was easily the first fight between Ahsoka and Baykal Skoll. The clearly contrasting fighting styles each used made it a much more visually interesting fight than most other lightsaber fights, even counting other Star Wars media. Im in the camp that didnt care as much for the fast-and-furious, disorienting lightsaber choreography of the prequel movies, though, so my opinion here is admittedly shaped by that.

All in all my opinion of the show hasnt changed from what I summed up in the last topic about it I posted in: its a mostly good-looking show, with lackluster writing due to its somewhat bland characters, that leans waaaaay too heavily on every episode having some sort of extremely contrived fan service moment, so that the audience can tweet about how hype it was.

CyricZ posted...

Yes it should.

It absolutely should.

Why would you give true quality in storytelling and then tell people "don't get used to this"?

Because that's not what the series is about. It's not a political drama or anything like that. It's meant to be for all ages. So wanting a more mature take is fine but shouldn't be what the entire series is now based on. If you aged out of Star Wars, that's cool. But don't ask it to change to accommodate that because the rest of the fan base likes it just the way it is.

Basically, Andor is for people who didn't really like Star Wars to begin with, much like Snyder's Superman was made for people who didn't like the character as is.

Wasn't Thrawn a fan favorite from the expanded universe?

lolife67 posted...

Andor shouldn't be the bar set for Star Wars and I highly doubt it is for most fans.

I'm not saying that all SW media should be a carbon copy of Andor, nor am I saying that Andor is some immutable pinnacle of writing (although it is really, really good). But it should serve as a more general standard for SW going forward, in which new shows look at it and say 'hey, maybe putting more emotion, tension, smart dialogue, and clear, consistent motivation into our characters can only be a good thing.'

You don't even need to look exclusively to Andor for inspiration when even something as relatively simple as The Lego Movie has more charm and emotional weight than Ahsoka. Take the MCU for another example; people rip on its movies for being bland cookie-cutter capeshit, but myself and many others got invested in those movies due to a core cast of likeable, memorable, and (mostly) well-written core characters, which produced an attachment that carried viewers through two dozen movies worth of material, some of which was great but most of which was mediocre.

But SW has almost stubbornly refused to learn lessons from contemporary media over the years, outside of outliers like Andor. At this point, simply meeting expectations is not a good thing when the franchise lows outweigh the highs. There's a ton of potential here, but too often you either have good characters stuck in a bad plot (the Sequel Trilogy), or a good plot saddled with bland characters (Ahsoka). SW as a franchise is long past due to set its overall writing standards a little higher.

lolife67 posted...

Because that's not what the series is about. It's not a political drama or anything like that.

Star Wars is a setting. It's not a genre or an audience. It can be whatever it needs to be.

It's meant to be for all ages. So wanting a more mature take is fine but shouldn't be what the entire series is now based on. If you aged out of Star Wars, that's cool. But don't ask it to change to accommodate that because the rest of the fan base likes it just the way it is.

Do you think I liked Andor because it was rated M for Mature? I liked Andor because it spoke with more clarity in message than many other Star Wars. I liked Andor because every major character was fully fleshed out with clear motivations, challenges, and growth.

Basically, Andor is for people who didn't really like Star Wars to begin with, much like Snyder's Superman was made for people who didn't like the character as is.

lol what I've been a Star Wars fan my entire life and Andor is literally one of the best examples of Star Wars I've seen since ESB.

Don't try to box Star Wars in. It can be a comedy. It can be art. It can be politics. It can be young. It can be adult.

And it can be prestige like Andor is. They just have to commit to it.

masterpug53 posted...

I'm not saying that all SW media should be a carbon copy of Andor, nor am I saying that Andor is some immutable pinnacle of writing (although it is really, really good). But it should serve as a more general standard for SW going forward, in which new shows look at it and say 'hey, maybe putting more emotion, tension, smart dialogue, and clear, consistent motivation into our characters can only be a good thing.'

You don't even need to look exclusively to Andor for inspiration when even something as relatively simple as The Lego Movie has more charm and emotional weight than Ahsoka. Take the MCU for another example; people rip on its movies for being bland cookie-cutter capeshit, but myself and many others got invested in those movies due to a core cast of likeable, memorable, and (mostly) well-written core characters, which produced an attachment that carried viewers through two dozen movies worth of material, some of which was great but most of which was mediocre.

But SW has almost stubbornly refused to learn lessons from contemporary media over the years, outside of outliers like Andor. At this point, simply meeting expectations is not a good thing when the franchise lows outweigh the highs. There's a ton of potential here, but too often you either have good characters stuck in a bad plot (the Sequel Trilogy), or a good plot saddled with bland characters (Ahsoka). SW as a franchise is long past due to set its overall writing standards a little higher.

But you're talking about subjective things as though they're objective measurements. I found Andor to be extremely boring and couldn't make it past 2 episodes. Ahsoka, on the other hand, I LOVED! I enjoyed all the characters and didn't find them bland at all.

In your MCU example, you would be the audience that finds them "bland and cookie cutter," whereas I'm the one who connected and loved them.

lolife67 posted...

I found Andor to be extremely boring and couldn't make it past 2 episodes

Okay I'm starting to see the argument here.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

The best Star Wars is the one that lives in your head and your heart.

lolife67 posted...

But you're talking about subjective things as though they're objective measurements. I found Andor to be extremely boring and couldn't make it past 2 episodes. Ahsoka, on the other hand, I LOVED! I enjoyed all the characters and didn't find them bland at all.

In your MCU example, you would be the audience that finds them "bland and cookie cutter," whereas I'm the one who connected and loved them.

C'mon dude, you didn't really just play the 'you're treating your opinions as facts' card, did you? I swear I haven't seen that on the internet in at least a decade.

CyricZ posted...

The best Star Wars is the one that lives in your head and your heart.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/6/3/AAZ3HuAAE62_.jpg

masterpug53 posted...

C'mon dude, you didn't really just play the 'you're treating your opinions as facts' card, did you? I swear I haven't seen that on the internet in at least a decade.

I wasn't playing any card, just saying what I interpreted by your comments.

CyricZ posted...

The best Star Wars is the one that lives in your head and your heart.

I agree which is why I don't think Andor should be a "standard." The assumption is that other SW projects don't put forth any effort or care in the writing. I very much disagree.

There's care put into Ahsoka. But it's for fan service and implications of lore and not so much emotion and characterisation. It doesn't really need to be an either or decision. It can be both.

Even The Mandalorian has the emotional core of Mando and Grogu.

I think even people who like this show would admit that the main reason story this show is telling is to both resolve plot threads from Rebels and set up something else in the future. Personally I always find these stories a bit weak.

mystic_belmont posted...

Sabine gets force powers?

If you're surprised by this, I don't think you actually know how the force works.

Punished_Blinx posted...

There's care put into Ahsoka. But it's for fan service and implications of lore and not so much emotion and characterisation. It doesn't really need to be an either or decision. It can be both.

Even The Mandalorian has the emotional core of Mando and Grogu.

I think even people who like this show would admit that the main reason story this show is telling is to both resolve plot threads from Rebels and set up something else in the future. Personally I always find these stories a bit weak.

I'm sure a lot of fans of those cartoons like it because it's a continuation. However a lot of us, like myself, never watched either show and still liked Ahsoka. But I don't think utilizing the characters' past appearances should be held against the show, either. Neither should "fan service."

lolife67 posted...

I'm sure a lot of fans of those cartoons like it because it's a continuation. However a lot of us, like myself, never watched either show and still liked Ahsoka. But I don't think utilizing the characters' past appearances should be held against the show, either. Neither should "fan service."

I'm not using those to hold it against the show. My issue is there's nothing else to it.

Across the Spider-Verse is filled to the brim with fan service and established characters. It's even an incomplete story. But the heart of that story is Miles finding his place in a world that tells him he doesn't belong. It carries across his whole character arc.

It's something like that which is missing here. If there's no emotional core to any of this I'm basically just watching action figures. It's not like Ahsoka and Ezra can't be more than that.