Current Events > Is Bethesda an overrated developer?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Overrated by the general public, underrated by "hardcore gamers"

Punished_Blinx posted...

Sure but people act like Bethesda games are worthless without mods. If anything the majority of people who play these games don't use them and they're still really popular.

Yes. They likewise dont know any better because thats the only way theyve played them.

I'm not really sure why people treat mods like a criticism. Any game that opened itself to mods as much as Bethesda games do would also drastically improve.

Mods arent a criticism. Bethesda being lazy because of mods is a criticism. I mean, there will be a bug at launch, modders will fix it in the first month, and then when they re-release the game as an Anniversary Edition in 10 years, Bethesda still wont have fixed that bug, because they know modders will for those who care, and for anyone who doesnt care, Bethesda doesnt feel they have to.

It really comes off as them having no QA whatsoever. Its less the bugs that bother people but that Bethesda makes no apparent effort to fix them. This has been going on as long as Ive been playing their games, and I started with Morrowind.

PraetorXyn posted...

Yes. They likewise dont know any better because thats the only way theyve played them.

Mods arent a criticism. Bethesda being lazy because of mods is a criticism. I mean, there will be a bug at launch, modders will fix it in the first month, and then when they re-release the game as an Anniversary Edition in 10 years, Bethesda still wont have fixed that bug, because they know modders will for those who care, and for anyone who doesnt care, Bethesda doesnt feel they have to.

It really comes off as them having no QA whatsoever. Its less the bugs that bother people but that Bethesda makes no apparent effort to fix them. This has been going on as long as Ive been playing their games, and I started with Morrowind.

You're approaching this from the point of view that just because a game can be better with mods means it's not good, which isn't true.

And it's not ignorance to say an unmodded game is good without having played the modded version. People have other games to refer to. If someone plays Skyrim unmodded and says its fun or good they aren't lying, they're comparing their experience to other games they've played and deciding they enjoyed it.

Re-releases having the same bugs as the original isn't unique to Bethesda. Hell sometimes there are even more.

eh, they put out good games but rely too much on modding to fix things.

modding to *change* the game and offer new experiences is great. needing mods to fix bugs that should have been fixed by the devs is not

do they consistently over promise while under delivering?

if not they're not really overrated.

codey posted...

You're approaching this from the point of view that just because a game can be better with mods means it's not good, which isn't true.

I am not. I unequivocally believe modding always makes games better. Im just criticizing Bethesda because they think modders existing means they have to do a lot less work. We should have Bethesda making better games AND modders making them even better still.

And it's not ignorance to say an unmodded game is good without having played the modded version. People have other games to refer to. If someone plays Skyrim unmodded and says its fun or good they aren't lying, they're comparing their experience to other games they've played and deciding they enjoyed it.

I never said anyone was lying. I just said they didnt know any better, because without having experienced it, they simply cant. Comparing unmodded Bethesda games to any other sort of game only goes so far. I mean, other games are less buggy, other games have been roleplaying mechanics, etc., but I cant think of many other games that do the same things Bethesda games do.

Comparing a modded Bethesda game to an unmodded one is like comparing a PS2 to a PS1, if not something even more stark.

What does 'a better Bethesda game' actually look like.

Bug wise there's nothing major about Starfield from what I have experienced. But these are 100+ hour games where you can do all sorts of shit at any point. Of course there's going to be more bugs than the usual game. I can't dump hundreds of potatoes in a random NPC pocket in other games. The easiest way to solve bugs is to streamline the game so there's less opportunities for bugs. Do people actually want that?

Bethesda games are in this weird bubble where everything feeds into itself. It has a janky engine that makes it possible for the game to have all of this freedom and persistence and have 100+ hours of content and incredibly flexible mod support. It's a house of cards and you can't remove one without losing everything else.

Punished_Blinx posted...

What does 'a better Bethesda game' actually look like.

Bug wise there's nothing major about Starfield from what I have experienced. But these are 100+ hour games where you can do all sorts of shit at any point. Of course there's going to be more bugs than the usual game. I can't dump hundreds of potatoes in a random NPC pocket in other games. The easiest way to solve bugs is to streamline the game so there's less opportunities for bugs. Do people actually want that?

No. We just want Bethesda to fix at least quest breaking bugs as the community finds them, and for them not to repeat the same mistakes theyve been making for 20 years. Thats not a big ask.

Bethesda games are in this weird bubble where everything feeds into itself. It has a janky engine that makes it possible for the game to have all of this freedom and persistence and have 100+ hours of content and incredibly flexible mod support. It's a house of cards and you can't remove one without losing everything else.

Thats the thing. As a software developer, Id be incredibly surprised if that engines source code wasnt a mass of spaghetti code held together by duct tape and prayers.

The question is if the jank and mod support is really worth it? Would they be better off making a new, less janky, just as moddable in-house engine from scratch? Would they be better off switching to Unreal Engine? I dont know. But shit. Theyre stuck with foibles theyve had for 20 years.

For example, do you know how the train car worked in Fallout 3? There was an NPC under the ground who walked, and the train was his hand. Thats how the train moved. Thats probably the jankiest shit Ive ever heard in my 37 years of living. Its probably because their engine just wont support actual land vehicles, which people are complaining about the absence of in Starfield.

PraetorXyn posted...

No. We just want Bethesda to fix at least quest breaking bugs as the community finds them, and for them not to repeat the same mistakes theyve been making for 20 years. Thats not a big ask.

Like I said Starfield doesn't seem to have as many issues and they're still patching that game.

PraetorXyn posted...

The question is if the jank and mod support is really worth it? Would they be better off making a new, less janky, just as moddable in-house engine from scratch? Would they be better off switching to Unreal Engine? I dont know. But shit. Theyre stuck with foibles theyve had for 20 years.

If you expect them to make an entirely new engine from scratch then I hope you'd be okay waiting another decade for the next Elder Scrolls. That would be an absolutely massive undertaking.

Unreal Engine didn't even support open world cells until a few years ago. It has a long way to go to be even close to comparable to what Bethesda games have. That's being one of the most popular and supported engines in the industry to boot. With the amount of Unreal engine games there are how many are as moddable as a Bethesda game?

If it was easy to make a super polished Bethesda style game with mod support other developers would do it! Skyrim sold over 60 million copies!

PraetorXyn posted...

For example, do you know how the train car worked in Fallout 3? There was an NPC under the ground who walked, and the train was his hand. Thats how the train moved. Thats probably the jankiest shit Ive ever heard in my 37 years of living. Its probably because their engine just wont support actual land vehicles, which people are complaining about the absence of in Starfield.

If the player doesn't know it literally doesn't matter what tricks are used. It's a fun fact and games are filled with stuff like this in the background.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Like I said Starfield doesn't seem to have as many issues and they're still patching that game.

Thats not what Im seeing and hearing. UI still sucks so you need the UI mod. Inventory is even worse so you need mods for that. The faces look like Mass Effect Andromeda. Enemy ships aim for center mass, so the best way to build a ship is making the ship a big rectangular frame so they just shoot at the empty space hilarious, but fucking weird and jank.

If you expect them to make an entirely new engine from scratch then I hope you'd be okay waiting another decade for the next Elder Scrolls. That would be an absolutely massive undertaking.

Happily. Id wait 20 if the result was what I expect it would be.

Unreal Engine didn't even support open world cells until a few years ago. It has a long way to go to be even close to comparable to what Bethesda games have. That's being one of the most popular and supported engines in the industry to boot. With the amount of Unreal engine games there are how many are as moddable as a Bethesda game?

None, hence the question as to whether the insane moddability was worth the jank. Its not like mods dont exist for other games.

If it was easy to make a super polished Bethesda style game with mod support other developers would do it! Skyrim sold over 60 million copies!

Of course they would, and I never claimed it was easy. Taylor Swift is probably the most popular artist in the world. Thats not an indicator of quality.

If the player doesn't know it literally doesn't matter what tricks are used. It's a fun fact and games are filled with stuff like this in the background.

The issue is so many of these tricks are used the jank cant be hidden, so the player at least knows somethings off.

PraetorXyn posted...

Enemy ships aim for center mass, so the best way to build a ship is making the ship a big rectangular frame so they just shoot at the empty space hilarious, but fucking weird and jank.

That's precisely the kind of thing that can only happen in a Bethesda game. In any other game this wouldn't matter because you aren't allowed to make a rectangular framed ship. So go for it! It's part of the fun man.

PraetorXyn posted...

None, hence the question as to whether the insane moddability was worth the jank. Its not like mods dont exist for other games.

Mods don't exist to the same degree for other games. That's thanks to the engine. Modern engines don't really have the same level of flexibility for modders. If anything the Bethesda engine not drastically changing is what makes it still possible. There's no learning curve for the modders to get around. They're good to go on release.

Of course that's a tough thing to potentially lose. No one else in the industry has this. The top 6 games on Nexus Mods are all Bethesda engine games and Starfield is going to work its way up there too.

Theyre also one of the best platforms for mods.

Nah. As programmers, they lack a few things. As world builders, though, I think they have to be among the best of the best.

Punished_Blinx posted...

That's precisely the kind of thing that can only happen in a Bethesda game. In any other game this wouldn't matter because you aren't allowed to make a rectangular framed ship.

Kingdom Hearts 2 has them beat by nearly 2 decades

TheSavageDragon posted...

Kingdom Hearts 2 has them beat by nearly 2 decades

Its amazing watching people miss the point so hard.

SwayM posted...

Its amazing watching people miss the point so hard.

It truly is. Especially when those people aren't able to recognize a joke.

TheSavageDragon posted...

It truly is. Especially when those people aren't able to recognize a joke.

Fair play.

KanWan posted...

Underrated

Their games are always painted into a corner as casual games for casual folks these days but despite the easy price of admission, theyre incredibly fun sandbox games with tons to do compared to other games. The bugs in the games are simply due to the massive scope of what they try to achieve and by all accounts they check off what it is they set out to do. Fun games with fun side quests and content and with enough accessibility anyone could get into.

The fact that they can take their formula and copy and paste it into different settings and still provide a fun experience means they know what video games are all about.

In no universe are they underrated lmao