Current Events > Trans women banned from top-level female chess

(+) Yeah! (+)

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

There are natural inclinations that are reflected in the current distribution though so this isn't really something that could happen

what does this statement mean?

andel posted...

what does this statement mean?

Something transphobic, I'm sure.

it means some gamefaqs users live in the 1950s

streamofthesky posted...

There's no way there's 100x or more men in chess than women, that's crazy

There are, easily. Many cultures have essentially barred women from Chess for most of its existence.

Giblet_Enjoyer posted...

There are natural inclinations that are reflected in the current distribution though so this isn't really something that could happen

What inclinations? You think women just arent as into Chess and the decades/centuries of them not being allowed to play dont matter? You seem as misogynistic as the cultures that lead to the imbalance. The idea that girls and women just arent as inclined to play Chess is horse shit. Teach Chess to both boys and girls and they both embrace it at similar rates.

Skankhair posted...

There are, easily. Many cultures have essentially barred women from Chess for most of its existence.

What inclinations? You think women just arent as into Chess and the decades/centuries of them not being allowed to play dont matter? You seem as misogynistic as the cultures that lead to the imbalance. The idea that girls and women just arent as inclined to play Chess is horse shit. Teach Chess to both boys and girls and they both embrace it at similar rates.

I have him tagged as a nazi stan, so misogyny is par for the course.

Robot2600 posted...

why imagine? just listen to what the professional women chess players have to say. it's one of the videos i linked.

100% bullshit

i think there is a typo here?

as bad as guys are toward women, they are ultra-fucking-worse to trans women.

maybe this is coming from TERF nonsense within the chess-playing world. it's international and a lot of the tournaments are in the middle east.

i don't think there is, pay attention, literally ONE "out" queer professional chess player in all of history. that's insane.

He threw a fit, but... you are ignoring the important part here. Hans is literally a total fucking cheater. He cheated like a motherfucker, online, a lot. Maybe Magnus was wrong about that one instance, but put yourself in his position. You play against a guy who cheats and you know it... it's a lesson to learn about accusing people without hard proof in a public setting.

Chess makes people go insane though. Hans is a kid, I look forward to his career and hope he can come back, come clean about how much he cheated, and start over.

idk I lost interest in the case because they'll probably settle after the lawyers pay themselves, i dont even care.

Magnus knows that younger players are strong too, it's not like he thinks a 19yo couldnt beat him. He was getting beaten by Pragg, a 17 year old, at the time, Indian player who is fucking amazing. he doesnt accuse Pragg of cheating.

in reality i think a few things happened:
1. hans "sharked" magnus by playing like shit in casual "hang-out" session
2. hans also cheated a bunch online, and Magnus knew this
3. hans did NOT know that Magnus knew, Magnus only knew b/c of a business deal with chess.com, and chess.com 70-page document is about as convincing as the recent dt indictments, which is to say: clearly written, easy to understand, and utterly, utterly damning. i mean they released Hans' emails with them, so... it's bad.
4. anyway, maybe hans even knew that magnus knew; doesn't matter. hans played well, magnus psyched himself out and played like shit.
5. magnus called hans out, but hans wasn't cheating...not that day.
it's a crazy drama anyway you look at it.

It is absolutely 100% TERF nonsense

Rotterdammerung posted...

It is absolutely 100% TERF nonsense

wait, what do magnus and hans have to do with terfs?

-magnus thinks there is no genetic differences between men and women in regards to chess
-someone else brought up hans

andel posted...

wait, what do magnus and hans have to do with terfs?

my comment was in relation to:

as bad as guys are toward women, they are ultra-fucking-worse to trans women.

maybe this is coming from TERF nonsense within the chess-playing world. it's international and a lot of the tournaments are in the middle east.

i don't think there is, pay attention, literally ONE "out" queer professional chess player in all of history. that's insane.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Well 15 women for every 100 men is a hell of a lot better than "1 woman for every 100 men" that was spouted earlier lol.

Chess tournaments got a cleavage rule.
https://en.chessbase.com/post/che-and-cleavage-dre-code-story-in-the-media

Shadowplay posted...

There's potentially a male advantage because, on average, men have much greater visual-spatial ability, while women have greater verbal ability. That means that the typical man can visualize things and move objects around in his head more clearly and easily than the typical woman can. Again, this is just the average; there are indeed women that have greater visual-spatial ability than most men and most women. And for all we know, women may be able to use some sort of alternate strategy when playing chess as opposed to picturing all the possible moves in their head.

The explanation of having a women's league due to comfortability or something of that nature makes a lot of sense, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if women participating in chess had nothing to do with these average differences in cognitive ability. And for all we know, trans women might skew towards the average verbal and visual-spatial ability of ciswomen.

Does this mean Girls are inherently worse in turn based games like BG3?

So I've seen a lot of posts claiming that men are better at chess due to biological factors, but uhh, not a whole lot of sources. When was this study published?

Gwynevere posted...

So I've seen a lot of posts claiming that men are better at chess due to biological factors, but uhh, not a whole lot of sources. When was this study published?

Men have better grip strength than women, meaning men are better able to grip the pieces when moving them:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17186303/

coolguyjimmy posted...

Men have better grip strength than women, meaning men are better able to grip the pieces when moving them:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17186303/

That's a good point. Additionally, our innate understanding of parallel parking means any moves involving placing one piece between two others is really only ever employed by male players

Can someone explain the "women were banned/discouraged for a long time" argument to me?

I don't see how that would matter to young girls' ability to learn the game now. I've never seen anybody give a shit about girls playing chess in my lifetime. With all the online and print resources available I'd imagine they could be just as good if they practiced from an early age.

Whereas in video games I still see it regularly.

CasualGuy posted...

Can someone explain the "women were banned/discouraged for a long time" argument to me?

I don't see how that would matter to young girls' ability to learn the game now. I've never seen anybody give a shit about girls playing chess in my lifetime. With all the online and print resources available I'd imagine they could be just as good if they practiced from an early age.

Whereas in video games I still see it regularly.

Have you ever stepped foot into a chess club before? Much like in tech, much like in video games, when you get a bunch of lonely nerdy dudes who put their self worth in line with their ability to do some nerdy thing, it tends to breed a toxic environment filled with aggression and sexual harrassment.

COVxy posted...

Have you ever stepped foot into a chess club before? Much like in tech, much like in video games, when you get a bunch of lonely nerdy dudes who put their self worth in line with their ability to do some nerdy thing, it tends to breed a toxic environment filled with aggression and sexual harrassment.

Don't need the smug tone. Of course I have. In our town it's usually a whole family night type of thing. You see a few dudes that are really sore losers but it's not what you're describing.

Yours seems like a stereotype

The last time I was in a chess club my friend got relentlessly hit on by a few dudes. The quote of the century being "you have some nice baby making hips".

The whole tradition of aggressive shit talking speed chess is clearly a male aggression thing. Women typically don't respond to competition with aggression, and sports that assimilate that into their traditions tend to have low participation from women.

CasualGuy posted...

Can someone explain the "women were banned/discouraged for a long time" argument to me?

I don't see how that would matter to young girls' ability to learn the game now. I've never seen anybody give a shit about girls playing chess in my lifetime. With all the online and print resources available I'd imagine they could be just as good if they practiced from an early age.

Whereas in video games I still see it regularly.

Its a numbers game. Far more boys pick up chess than girls, so there are going to be more men in the top ranks regardless of womens ability.

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Its a numbers game. Far more boys pick up chess than girls, so there are going to be more men in the top ranks regardless of womens ability.

True

Dear God, what

Chess???

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


lol

streamofthesky posted...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/man-caught-disguising-himself-woman-29716713

Of the top 100 chess players, only 1 is a woman, if I recall correctly.

Indeed. That is 100% cultural, not intellectual.

RebeccaBlack posted...

Exactly. Science says that logic is a male thing. Creativity are what woman goes to. It's a testosterone and estrogen difference which is fine.

If that is how it worked, trans women entering with cis women wouldn't matter

andel posted...

and on topic, sports was historically separated by gender so women could be top level pro competitors. there isn't a physical difference that would matter in chess so i don't really see the need for it to be segregated. for some reason men tend to be better at the top end of chess but that is almost certainly because many, many more men actually play.

Noooo sports have been historically segregated to protect men's fragile egos. See: Baseball.

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Noooo sports have been historically segregated to protect men's fragile egos. See: Baseball.

Unsure if serious post. Are you suggesting that we should desegregate sports and that would be fine

CasualGuy posted...

Can someone explain the "women were banned/discouraged for a long time" argument to me?

I don't see how that would matter to young girls' ability to learn the game now. I've never seen anybody give a shit about girls playing chess in my lifetime. With all the online and print resources available I'd imagine they could be just as good if they practiced from an early age.

Whereas in video games I still see it regularly.

It's exactly the same phenomen as with videogames.

Chess being traditionally seen as a 'boys' thing. The mentors, role models, and champions all being male.

The challenge for a female is twofold: challenging the stereotype and being good. It requires extra effort and motivation.

If a women's league encourages more girls to play, then I see it as an unambiguous positive. Saying that it's 'unnecessary' is missing the point: it does no harm, and a lot of good.

And of course trans women should be allowed to compete. As long as all that male puberty testosterone hasn't made their brains too logical for the ladies to handle. (Yes, that is sarcasm).

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Noooo sports have been historically segregated to protect men's fragile egos. See: Baseball.

A lot of it was issues around sexual propriety. The scandal of men in close proximity to ladies who may be displaying a bit of ankle or (the horror) bare arms!

pinky0926 posted...

Unsure if serious post. Are you suggesting that we should desegregate sports and that would be fine

I'm saying what I said. Sports were segregated because men really really fucking hated playing with women because they haaaaated when they lost. So they made up rules to say "women are too fragile and can't compete"

This wasn't decided by women, it was decided by men. In the between years, women's leagues began to crop up but by this point lots have changed about the game including numerous doping scandals.

In chess, iirc, women's leagues were created because it provided a safer space for women to play chess. Yes, things have gotten better over the years but it's worth remembering in the 70s there were less then 200 women chess players and these things take time as culture slowly changes.

It has nothing to do with aptitude of women and everything to do with culture

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

I'm saying what I said. Sports were segregated because men really really fucking hated playing with women because they haaaaated when they lost. So they made up rules to say "women are too fragile and can't compete"

This wasn't decided by women, it was decided by men. In the between years, women's leagues began to crop up but by this point lots have changed about the game including numerous doping scandals.

In chess, iirc, women's leagues were created because it provided a safer space for women to play chess. Yes, things have gotten better over the years but it's worth remembering in the 70s there were less then 200 women chess players and these things take time as culture slowly changes.

It has nothing to do with aptitude of women and everything to do with culture

Even if that's what happened then, I'm asking you what we should do now? Should we desegregate sports, have men and women and people of any gender identiy all competing in one open division?

pinky0926 posted...

Even if that's what happened then, I'm asking you what we should do now? Should we desegregate sports, have men and women and people of any gender identify all competing in one open division?

That is what baseball is like right now.

That's a dubious decision.

I was reading about the Polgar sisters fairly recently and how their father/coach tried his damnedest to get his girls matches with the best competitionavailable, regardless of gender. They had mixed success until the girls basically had nobody else to seriously comete against outside of themselves. Nevertheless, the youngest daughter Judit is considered the single best player ever who is also female, having defeated several world champions and obtaining the highest elo rating in history for any woman.

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

That is what baseball is like right now.

And there are no women in the MLB and the talking heads discuss whether it's possible or not. That should tell you something.

COVxy posted...

The last time I was in a chess club my friend got relentlessly hit on by a few dudes. The quote of the century being "you have some nice baby making hips".

The whole tradition of aggressive shit talking speed chess is clearly a male aggression thing. Women typically don't respond to competition with aggression, and sports that assimilate that into their traditions tend to have low participation from women.

Making the area that is safer from aggression limited to one gender is a problem, men who don't respond to things aggressively and are sensitive to it are left to be harmed by it. When I was going by my assigned at birth gender people not only had no sympathy for me wanting (sincere, non-mocking use of the term) safe spaces, they assumed I must actually want to get in to harass women. Even being out as nonbinary, I wouldn't be allowed in something marked as specifically for women, especially if the essentially male version is theoretically gender neutral.

So my point is, if there's no physical reason one sex would have an advantage in something, whether you have access to something designed to make it socially safer shouldn't be decided by gender.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

You can kick people out of competitions based on how they act, enforcing that more strictly is really all that's needed. My issue isn't about not letting women have somewhere safe, it's about making that a segregated space instead of trying to fix the main space. A lot of people who were AMAB are hardening themselves (and all the psychological damage that comes with that) or avoiding things because of how people are treated there as well, dividing things by gender and making one of them the place where you're safe and the other the one where you aren't is the problem.

I love how there are videos of women explaining exactly what people want explaining, yet we can't be bothered to watch a video, listen to a woman, and actually learn something about this issue.

"EXCUSE ME, is there a MAN that can explain this argument about women in chess? Because I THINK that if they were really equal they'd be proving it!"

like, are u fucking kidding me.

anyway, reading more about the descision today:

Trans Men will also have their (previous, Womens) titles stripped... but this is inconsistent with FIDE's other reasoning. If there is a cognitive difference, then FTM should be allowed in the women's division.

FIDE has an explicit statement that if someone FTM detransitions to a woman they can have their titles back.

Note that there was a case of a guy pretending to be a woman, in full hijab, at a tournament recently. But this fails, on the surface, to acknowledge the obvious truth: the women he was competing against were purposely kept uneducated and hype-controlled by that society. It's not like those women ever had a chess coach in their lives, much less allowed to leave the house to go to the chess club, use a computer, or w/e else.

But FIDE shows that it just literally thinks women are cognitively weaker than men. There is no reason trans women would even be banned from women's divisions.

Note also, no one would object to having to get the stamp of approval by a psychologist to make sure you were trolling. Plenty of sports have governing bodies, etc. It's the old boogeyman of the angry white guy throwing on a blonde wig, claiming he's "trans" and just being an asshole to everyone and everything. IDK what it would look like, but it's fucking obvious if someone is serious or trolling about being trans. Literally one of the most obvious things in the world, so we don't have to overthink it. You need a doctor's note, ok fine, no one even cares.

Also, I said earlier there was a guy who tried to compete in the women's division, but, IMPORTANTLY, he wasn't claiming to be trans or anything. He was just disguised as a woman, in a full hijab, and he refused to speak to anyone, which, apparently, is culturally acceptable jesus fucking christ anyway moving on so they thought he was a "meek & traditional" woman...

when they Scooby-Doo'd him (yes they did, that's what happened) he apologized and admitted he was doing it for the money. and he was.

Nevertheless, that's where I see this FIDE resolution coming from, coupled with the general transpanic of the last few years, which is a global, not just american, phenomenon.

Go compete in the Swedish womens chess league and get eviscerated. Even an American women's chess league is going to be so far beyond anyone on this board's skill level. Any country that educates both genders will produce better professional women players.

Let's put a few things in perspective also:

....the amount of work it takes to become an "FM" or "IM" is equivalent to earning a PhD by the time you are....14 at the oldest...

superGMs led insane lives that most peoples parents would not be able to handle or even approve of. inhuman even.

it's only people who have be trained their entire lives that can compete at that level. they have something like 50,000 hours of practice by the time they are 12. Where the fuck are you going to find 50,000 hours? You wont, you are an adult and have to make money.

kids have enormous free time, and it's that early training that makes the potential for a champion.

because also, you cant force someone to like, play, or be good at chess. you can't make your kid into a chess champion 100% of the time; they have to also love the game. And it takes a kind of obsessively single-minded determination coupled with a strong desire for competition that will make a strong chess master. they are lions and sharks. they are sheer forces of will and determination that go beyond would most people do. and they play more games in a day than most people play in a lifetime.

most of the time we train girls to be "nicer" than that, but we reward it, sometimes, in boys.

Q: what does every chess master have in common?
A: chess parent (or chess uncle)

Q: is the child of a chess player biologically predisposed to chess?
A: not at all

Q: Okay why then?
A: Only a chess-playing parent will be willing to deal with all the tournament travel bullshit, fees, coaches, formal training, books, hotel rooms, etc. They understand that you can't do this in moderation: you really need to attack it if that's your plan. Most "normal" parents have about as much patience as driving to 1 chess tournament 1 time. O, you didn't win? Oh well we're done with chess. Who cares, it's just a game. What about cheerleading?

Not every child of a chess player is good or likes chess. With rare exceptions, only a parent who is also a chess player will be able to provide the support needed to train a modern chess grandmaster.

Magnus will tell you: he's not a genius. The reason he's so good at chess is because he practiced way more than anyone else. Like a kid obsessed with Minecraft or Terraria, he got obsessed with chess from age 6-12 and did chess 18 hours a day for 6 years, basically. That's like 40,000 hours.

A desk job in America works 2000 hours a year, for comparison.

He fit the experiences of 20 years into 6 and did it as a kid, when he had the free time and parents that let him be a weirdo.

And he's playing 100s of games a day now. You can't catch up to that by studying 1 hour of chess in your free time.

Everyone that plays chess is getting better all the time. A 700-elo player these days is a strong player. They've studied the game. 20 years ago a 700 barely new the rules and a 1300 was a "strong" player.

The stakes are always rising, everyone sprinting ahead, attempting to leave their competition in the dust.

COVxy posted...

Have you ever stepped foot into a chess club before? Much like in tech, much like in video games, when you get a bunch of lonely nerdy dudes who put their self worth in line with their ability to do some nerdy thing, it tends to breed a toxic environment filled with aggression and sexual harrassment.

I don't know about Chess but I was in my hight school's robotics club and not only were there girls in my group, there were tons of girls in within other schools' teams during competitions. I can't speak for their teams but no girls were ridiculed by any boys in our groups

VFalcone posted...

I don't know about Chess but I was in my hight school's robotics club and not only were there girls in my group, there were tons of girls in within other schools' teams during competitions. I can't speak for their teams but no girls were ridiculed by any boys in our groups

Did you ever get their take on feeling that they belonged there?

i guess we achieved gender equality b/c everyone in robotics club was nice

Hey now I studied the blade.

TyVulpine posted...

I think women are smarter. While human were developing muscles over millennia, women were developing brains.

til women aren't human

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Like I said, my issue isn't there being safer areas, it's that many men and nonbinary people need them as well. Seeing an area where I felt like I would be more comfortable and being treated as a concern troll or predator if I asked why I wasn't allowed in has been a constant source of gender dysphoria to me. This is moving away from chess and I'll try to stop soon (although it does seem like almost everyone has agreed that there isn't the slightest justification for keeping transwomen out, which is good), but it's something I get emotionally caught up in.

To be like the hyoo-man.

TyVulpine posted...

I think women are smarter. While human were developing muscles over millennia, women were developing brains.

you might be right but that too is cultural. you dont even believe the stuff you are saying.

you dont think that men or women make better or worse:

-lawyers
-doctors
-professors
-scientists

now finish that train of thought: there's no genetic brain difference in regards to intelligence or "intellectual" activity. there is a human brain. it learns what you teach it. this obvious, you are being intentionally dense at worst and facile-as-fuck at best.