Current Events > Why is it called Metroidvania? (for real this time)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Instead of just, say, "Metroid-like" (similar to Rogue-like)

Originally the term "Metroidvania" specifically referred to Castlevania games that used Metroid's style of gameplay (i.e. a focus on action and exploration with new areas opening as you got more powers) starting with Symphony of the Night.

But now it's just a blanket term for any Metroid-like game...

Because when you see one, you retrace your steps and backtrack to a previous area to get away

Although one could argue Simon's Quest was the first Metroidvania, though the style didn't become popular until SotN

I always thought it was more to differentiate classic bad controls linear style of Castlevania to the RPG back tracking style Castlevania.

Because back then they didnt have an official name for that kind of game so people said Its like a Metroid or Castlevania type game, a Metroidvania.

And people took too long to give the genre an official name so that one just stuck.

Are people still trying to make "Search Action" a thing

Are we okay with calling a non-Castlevania and non-Metroid game a Metroidvania so long as it has the backtracking exploration style?

HylianFox posted...

Although one could argue Simon's Quest was the first Metroidvania, though the style didn't become popular until SotN

I actually never thought about that. That's a solid point.

VeggetaX posted...

Are we okay with calling a non-Castlevania and non-Metroid game a Metroidvania so long as it has the backtracking exploration style?

...even when there's not a hell of a lot of backtracking, like Faxanadu

Metroid created the gamplay style, but SotN added to it with RPG elements. So it's a blanket term that encompasses both of those formats.

Pathfinder would have been the best name for genre, but Metroidvania isn't going anywhere. That's just how genre names work.

Ivynn posted...

Are people still trying to make "Search Action" a thing

That's just Nintendo because for legal reasons they can't call it Metroidvania.

wesastro911 posted...

Pathfinder would have been the best name for genre, but Metroidvania isn't going anywhere. That's just how genre names work.

I wouldn't necessarily say that's true forever. Once upon a time FPSes were called Doomlikes. And platformers used to be called run & jumps.

Things can change over time.

You'd think they'd be called adventure /RPGs but yeah, it's to describe a game where you explore but also gain levels and abilities in addition to gadgets you pick up over the course of the game. And it doesn't have all of the skills in the game based off of the player, like Metroid, but also the skills and stats you have around the enemies.

IE, you'll never have a moment in a Metroid game where you struggle against enemies because you aren't high enough in level. If you're dying, it's strictly a skill issue.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Doomlikes

Doom Clones. Calling everything a "-like" and the only old genre that called things like that was roguelike, which basically doesn't even exist as a genre at this point.

Just call them Singleplayer Offline Battle Adventures (SOBA). It's perfectly descriptive term that gives all the information about the genre and contains zero redundant words.

wesastro911 posted...

Pathfinder would have been the best name for genre, but Metroidvania isn't going anywhere. That's just how genre names work.

That would just make people think it was a CRPG.

Hayame_Zero posted...

That would just make people think it was a CRPG.

Pathfinder the TTRPG didn't exist until years after SotN/SM

Because Symphony was just that dope.

First improvement on super metroid.

It was worthy.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

It does. That, however, has nothing to do with what I was saying. I'm saying that roguelikes don't really exist anymore. Out of the last 10 or so years I quite literally cannot come up with a single game that has come out that actually uses Rogue as a base for anything, and even when you go further back only a handful really come up. As good as something as Stone Soup is, it's hard to call it a genre when nothing actually fits in it.

Metroid-like would mean shooting combat, while Metroidvania is more physical combat.

Raikuro posted...

Metroid-like would mean shooting combat, while Metroidvania is more physical combat.

I've been saying this for years as one of the main differences between the games but I've seen more people say this aspect of the game is a minor detail.

ellis123 posted...

Out of the last 10 or so years I quite literally cannot come up with a single game that has come out that actually uses Rogue as a base for anything

The last pokemon mystery dungeon was 2020 admittedly I haven't played it and don't know if there's been a major deviation from the originals but there's plenty still being made.

Then you've got games like NetHack which are old as fuck but still getting updates.

It's not a popular genre but there's no shortage given how long these titles last.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The last pokemon mystery dungeon was 2020 admittedly I haven't played it and don't know if there's been a major deviation from the originals but there's plenty still being made.

Then you've got games like NetHack which are old as fuck but still getting updates.

It's not a popular genre but there's no shortage given how long these titles last.

Mystery Dungeon is its own genre.

And I'm not saying that there are no roguelikes that aren't still being updated and the like. Heck, I already brought up Stone Soup: a game that also continues to receive updates as well. Similarly pointing out that they continue to get love doesn't change what I said, that no one is making new ones. The existence of something from decades ago doesn't change that it's basically a dead genre, that nothing is made for it anymore. If you want to actually try and make an argument to the contrary at least bring up that the Elona dev is going to come out with a new game, don't point out that the corpse of the genre is kept moving by a bunch of wires from back in the 80/90's.

ellis123 posted...

Mystery Dungeon is its own genre.

lol please enlighten me what's the fucking difference

It should actually be called Zeldavania, because A Link to the Past is what inspired Symphony of the Night.

Tyranthraxus posted...

lol please enlighten me what's the fucking difference

Roguelikes lack a story while Mystery Dungeons have one (they are effectively JRPGs in that respect), they rarely give you any level of prior customization to your class (in particular getting to even choose one is abnormal as you tend to have canned characters), gear/items are incredibly simple, Mystery Dungeons have a world outside of The Dungeon (generally in the form of a hub), and roguelikes expect a constant state of your characters dying + you restarting in order to learn how to progress while Mystery Dungeons you largely are expected to run using the same character throughout the entire experience (barring starting a new game, of course).

Having a randomly generated map is not literally the only thing that matters for a roguelike. Look at Dark Cloud as an example of that.

ellis123 posted...

Roguelikes lack a story

Final fantasy last mission did have a story. I can also think of castle of the winds, as an old game that also had a story and was a rogue like. I don't think "having a story" makes it exempt.

ellis123 posted...

Roguelikes lack a story

Literally not even Rogue lacks a story. It's not a very complex one, but it's still got one.

A slightly more fleshed out story in a roguelike would be something like Ragnarok:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok_(video_game)#

ellis123 posted...

Having a randomly generated map is not literally the only thing that matters for a roguelike. Look at Dark Cloud as an example of that.

It's got much more going on for it than just random dungeons. It's got the signature turn based movent from rogue and the combat system is nearly identical. There are many permanent consequences for dying you just don't start the entire game over from scratch which is basically just them trying to make it easy/accessible.

ellis123 posted...

Mystery Dungeons have a world outside of The Dungeon

This is a bit unusual but doesn't conflict with anything established about roguelikes. Lots of roguelikes feature an area with nothing but friendly NPCs though it's usually a secret and not a main menu type area.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Literally not even Rogue lacks a story. It's not a very complex one, but it's still got one.

A slightly more fleshed out story in a roguelike would be something like Ragnarok:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok_(video_game)#

I'm referring to more the act of having a fleshed out, constantly active story. Not the ability to throw a blurb on the screen/user manual. Rogue gave you a reason as to why you were dungeon-delving, it's hard to say that it wasn't substantially less meaty than an RPG. That was sort of the point.

Tyranthraxus posted...

It's got much more going on for it than just random dungeons. It's got the signature turn based movent from rogue and the combat system is nearly identical. There are many permanent consequences for dying you just don't start the entire game over from scratch which is basically just them trying to make it easy/accessible.

Many old RPGs from the era had a similar combat system. And having carryover stuff is more a roguelite thing than a roguelike thing, though that matters little for what we're talking about as Mystery Dungeons tend to have you playing as the literal some character and there is a non-trivial chance that your stuff isn't going to be completely gone regardless.

Tyranthraxus posted...

This is a bit unusual but doesn't conflict with anything established about roguelikes. Lots of roguelikes feature an area with nothing but friendly NPCs though it's usually a secret and not a main menu type area.

Having an area with friendly NPCs is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about having an actual substantial amount of area space devoted to having a world outside of the dungeon. Like in PMD there is a lot of story and space devoted to the town in which you live in, compared to Rogue's "lol, go gettum tiger" nothing.

And I suppose I should say it as it will clarify my stance on this a bit better: Mystery Dungeon is a subgenre of roguelike in the same way that CRPGs and JRPGs are in the subgenre of RPGs. They have considerable similarities, but the distinction is relevant because of the generally different end feel that comes about due to the alterations in gameplay/narrative structure.

ellis123 posted...

Many old RPGs from the era had a similar combat system. And having carryover stuff is more a roguelite thing than a roguelike thing, though that matters little for what we're talking about as Mystery Dungeons tend to have you playing as the literal some character and there is a non-trivial chance that your stuff isn't going to be completely gone regardless.

No, many didn't. And those that did were often roguelikes. There's really only 3 RPGs from which all other RPGs stem from, Ultima, Wizardry, and Rogue.

And fixing a main character into the story of the game doesn't disqualify anything. These things are just narrative tools to provide exposition for the game. If you removed all the external stuff and story portions from Pokemon mystery dungeon, you'd have essentially easy Rogue but with less options for your characters.

ellis123 posted...

Having an area with friendly NPCs is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about having an actual substantial amount of area space devoted to having a world outside of the dungeon. Like in PMD there is a lot of story and space devoted to the town in which you live in, compared to Rogue's "lol, go gettum tiger" nothing.

Rogue is fairly primitive in what it did. Wizardry 1 can also be very much described as "lol, go gettum tiger" but still had the World Outside the Dungeon

It was just also a very primitive World outside the dungeon.

More advanced games found ways to alter the pacing of the game by adding things like the hub so that it's not just pure dungeon the whole time but that doesn't take away from the fact that the core game mechanics are all the same.