Current Events > Women need to start using men for sex

(+) Yeah! (+)

bsp77 posted...

The reason I even made that comment is because of people like you and Sad_Face and your misogyny.

I've yet to post misogyny ITT though. You're simply getting defensive about me calling you out on your claim earlier, is what's happening.

Sillyface_Mcdum posted...

I've yet to post misogyny ITT though. You're simply getting defensive about me calling you out on your claim earlier, is what's happening.

So you admit you do in other threads.

I forgot you called me out. I can't tell you and Sad_Face apart. I think you might actually be the same person...

bsp77 posted...

So you admit you do in other threads.

I forgot you called me out. I can't tell you and Sad_Face apart. I think you might actually be the same person...

I dont think its entirely fair to label them as people.

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Well said.

bsp77 posted...

So you admit you do in other threads.

I forgot you called me out. I can't tell you and Sad_Face apart. I think you might actually be the same person...

Damn I'm a lot of peoples' alt account, apparently. He's gotta be like the 15th

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Lmao, no. Posting a graph contesting the claim that women are at their happiest now isn't me saying you're an animal, get a grip and rejoin us in the real world please. Meanwhile...

Glob posted...

I dont think its entirely fair to label them as people.

I eagerly await your impassioned speech about how wrong it is for him to literally call me and sad_face subhuman

Also, in regards to surveys and the like... you have to take them with a huge amount of skepticism... seeing as how badly misinformed people are about actuality.

Propaganda.

Take an opinion on Trans people when so much time and effort is spent on labeling them "groomers."

Easy to dislike groomers. Right?

Point is. Often times, people are not given an honest picture to base "their" opinions on.

EthanSilver posted...

Also, in regards to surveys and the like... you have to take them with a huge amount of skepticism... seeing as how badly misinformed people are about actuality.

Propaganda.

Take an opinion on Trans people when so much time and effort is spent on labeling them "groomers."

Easy to dislike groomers. Right?

I don't think you explained this as well as you could have but I think I get what you're saying. People don't have a perfect picture of the way things are going.

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Correct, it's saying that the graph shows women were less happy, which is objectively a part of well-being. No?

Being happy is not a part of well-being, you heard it here first. Amazin'

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I enjoy watching you analogize womens' rights to a caged monkey mere minutes after accusing me of likening women to animals, I really do

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Pretty weaksauce damage control. Also I didn't say we should go back to the 70s, that's you injecting your own fanfic into my post. No one's gonna be as happy as they were then

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He's not worth your time, just move onto something happier and more productive!

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Claiming I likened women to animals and then immediately analogizing them to animals and then claiming you only did it so I'd "get it"

That's the weakest damage control I've ever seen tbh

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That's a very recent thing, refer to my graph

Sillyface_Mcdum posted...

Claiming I likened women to animals and then immediately analogizing them to animals and then claiming you only did it so I'd "get it"

That's the weakest damage control I've ever seen tbh

That's a very recent thing, refer to my graph

Your graph is nonsense and youre full of shit.

Sillyface_Mcdum posted...

Damn I'm a lot of peoples' alt account, apparently. He's gotta be like the 15th

I mean, youre certainly someones alt, its just hard to tell which of the 15 career trolls it is.

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I could keep up if you'd actually link to what you're quoting. Did I miss it or are you acting like I should just know wtf you're referencing here. I quickly skimmed the thread and I didn't see it

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Which I'm glad I did because I missed this fourth edit of your post that you made. I love this post because you accuse me of "honking my own horn" and immediately in the same post proceed to boast about how smart and educated you are. You have to be doing this on purpose at this point this is beyond parody haha

Your silence about glob calling us subhuman is deafening btw, I'm sure you totally care about dehumanizing people though

"Sure!" -- said every man ever.

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And yet you said

If you're going to debate please keep up.

So I'll kindly ask you to refer to my papers; okay?

So you expect me to know the ins and outs of an article you didn't post and then tell me to refer to it while telling me you won't post it. You're totally debating in good faith, I never should have doubted you.

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I wouldn't expect you to, in fact that's exactly why I challenged you to. You've done exactly what I wanted and knew you would, i.e. exposing that you actually have principles that are plastic at best and don't care about dehumanization so long as the target's acceptable to you. I hope your opponents in real world issues of actual gravity are more discerning.

Masked-One posted...

Social regulation is different from the GOP pushing anti-abortion/anti-alimony/etc. laws. It's simply shaming certain types of behavior. People already do that.

Thank you.

Social shaming is exactly what half the posters are doing to me, name calling to get me in line with the rest of the status quo. And social shaming in general is already what happens in cultures all around the world. It's extensively used in Asian cultures as they are more collectivist and and as a result people's decisions are generally shame influenced (what would everyone think of me if I did this?) versus our Western culture that is more individualistic and our decisions are guilt influenced (how would I feel if I did this?).

In any group or population, people's behavior will be regulated to maintain a certain culture; whether through direct law and enforcement or through social shaming. On this site, we have moderators and the reporting system as the equivalent of law and enforcement while the users name and shame for social shaming.

What would I do without you or Sillyface_Mcdum to interpret my armchair psychology? GOD.

Gladius_ posted...

Weird, you already acknowledged that I have no problem with men who are in touch with their emotions (though, I disagree abolishing gender norms in any way would 'feminize' men.) You're under, again, the misconception that I believe every guy should be the opposite of masculinity. Again, when I say enforced gender norms it's the idea that men "must" be that way that I oppose or that women "must" be a certain way.

I could nitpick more about your marriage (the financial contribution in particular I want to speak on) but now I'm hitting speculation points for others and I have to take your word for it. But simply put, I don't buy it, that you happen chance married a guy who still has been able to maintain typical male norms. But I won't bring it up again. In fact, I will acknowledge defeat in that you're just built different, extraordinary and completely atypical of your female contemporaries.

Now regarding the above. I am going to point to to this line:

for any rule; If it can, it will be first be used, then exploited, and then abused and over time make things worse for everyone.

We can all agree that the ease of access to contraception and abortion is a major economic, behavioral and reproductive freedom boon for women. Probably the biggest advancement of freedom for women of the last century (yeah, I would argue more than the right to vote... maybe). However, all of thousands of characters I've written in this topic regarding the point of "Women control access to sex, men control access to relationships", a key enabler, the key exploit that was used and abused to generate all the problems I spoke about is in fact that very same advancement of freedom for women. Is it worth it? That's basically what country is divided on (granted most people aren't thinking of all these implications).

So when you talk about abolishing enforcing gender norms, I say you're being idealistic. Right now we have news of women complaining that "men aren't assertive enough, men don't approach enough, men don't do this. Men don't do that. Where are all the good men at?". Literally in fact complaining about feminine traits (yes, it's acceptable for a girl to not be assertive, not so much for a dude). And the implication of not enforcing any gender norm means there will be no standard for what a man is.

What I wrote about previously in this topic are problems arising from the cultural deprecation of the female expectation of chastity. And you want to remove (enforced) ALL gender norms?

Is this a stealth "women are bad" topic?

Sad_Face posted...

So when you talk about abolishing enforcing gender norms, I say you're being idealistic. Right now we have news of women complaining that "men aren't assertive enough, men don't approach enough, men don't do this. Men don't do that. Where are all the good men at?". Literally in fact complaining about feminine traits (yes, it's acceptable for a girl to not be assertive, not so much for a dude). And the implication of not enforcing any gender norm means there will be no standard for what a man is.

What are the standards for a man?

See this is where your arguments start to fall apart. I am by any traditional standard a masculine, heterosexual male blah blah blah... but I broke away from the social programming traps that lead other men like me to be disgusted or insecure with the idea of society existing in ways different from how it happened to be and who was in charge during my formative years within the structures I was raised in.

Nothing will make me not like to look at attractive women. Nothing will make me enjoy musical theater... and the existence of men who act and feel differently can take nothing away from me. I'm sorry about the insecurity that patriarchy and capitalism has conveniently bred into so many men in order to exploit and profit from it.

Sad_Face posted...

It's extensively used in Asian cultures as they are more collectivist and and as a result people's decisions are generally shame influenced (what would everyone think of me if I did this?) versus our Western culture that is more individualistic and our decisions are guilt influenced (how would I feel if I did this?).

Put down the Jordan Peterson and stop thinking that there are these innate or divinely bestowed and immutable standards. All of this is based on the groups and ideologies that are currently in power wanting to maintain that power and convincing enough people that these values are derived from some "natural law" and not the result of the same social conditioning and pressures they constantly lament are "incorrect" and unduly influencing society to change.

Torgo posted...

Is this a stealth "women are bad" topic?

Only if you allow them to be, apparently.

I really object to the idea that the human experience is some kind of solvable game in which adherence to the correct models will lead to a 'win'.

AverageDude9 posted...

This..is completely wrong. Because multiple men get rejected, and still live life.

The red pill pretty much teaches that men will have to deal with rejection. It's no diff from getting rejected from a job or college. You can fit all the boxes, try your best, and still fail.

Infact, rejection is a good thing. Because it means that you don't have to waste time on someone who doesn't care about you. The actual worst thing is being "strung along" or friendzoned. Because with the latter you are under the impression there is still a chance.

I get rejected all the time when I talk to women on online sites. And by that, "no" or "not interested, besto f luck to you" or no response. Hence why as a guy, the important thing is to message multiple women so that you don't get hung up on one person.

You lost any credibility you had as soon as you mentioned red pill.

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That idea of the 'win' is what the manosphere gurus and the Jordan Petersons of this world try to sell. It's reductive, limiting, and wholly inadequate.

It doesn't scratch the surface of the variety of human experience. It twists and simplifies complexities in interpersonal relationships to produce an 'answer' that will bring comfort to a specific audience.

bsp77 posted...

Hey, Koga is my friend and I feel bad if my joke hurt him. The reason I even made that comment is because of people like you and Sad_Face and your misogyny.

I am sorry, Koga

Don't be. You didn't do anything wrong. Like I said, it just touched a nerve. It's not your fault I'm too sensitive sometimes.

Torgo posted...

What are the standards for a man?

Abstractly speaking, traits that demonstrate the man will behave in such a way that he is reliable, is a productive and contributing member of society, and can and will handle the responsibility and commitment of taking care of his wife and raising a family and guiding his children to be productive and contributing to society like him.

What traits exemplify this? Depends on the culture. But I'll point to the boy scouts' 12 principles;

A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

However, there are social norms to ensure harmony among participants of a society and said norms are also adopted to optimize one's chances of success. Because men and women are different, there are norms exclusive to both of them aka gender norms. Makes sense why gender norms exist and how standards are derived?

Think of norms as equivalent for most accessible and easy to deploy practices to be accepted in society and easy bake strategies to find a minimally acceptable level of success. Does this mean that these norms are the best way to live? Absolutely not, everyone is different and has different ideals, values and interests. Do they mean that they're the only way to live? No. There are a gazillion ways to skin a cat. However, it's a set of time tested strategies that generally work if you don't have any idea on how to live life. If you're smart, go on the off beaten path and you'll still be fine as you'll figure it out. If not, stick to what works or you're screwed if you don't get stupidly lucky.

Gladius_ posted...

Sadface you mention without enforced gender norms then men will have no standard to point to what makes them a man and I ask.. why does it even matter? Yeah, some women are upset men aren't approaching as often, some women are upset more men are being open with their emotions, and some women..

Because the alternatives presented to challenge the established gender norms are causing more harm than success (the example I gave of feminizing men and the point of deprecation of chastity till marriage gender norm being exploited), we have a rapidly growing population of men who suffer from being either directionless, can't figure out their life, can't find a girl to call their own, and are checking out of society. The general populace isn't helping them as we don't have strong male role models to aspire to be like and so they will eventually gravitate to the redpill society and follow peeps like Fresh and Fit or Andrew Tate. Or they go through extremely drastic measures in the opposite direction to find acceptance with the current status quo.

Makes sense?

Sad_Face posted...

Because the alternatives presented to challenge the established gender norms are causing more harm than success

This is dumb and not true.

It ignores that A, two things can exist at once. And B, "forcing" such things can be mental abuse sometimes.

Don't corner yourself in a false dichotomy.

One can encourage one to not let things get to one, be "tough." While not not calling out someone as not being "manly" for showing emotions.

Quit it with your lazy false dichotomies. It's not one or the other. It's a case by case sort of thing.

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I never said that though. Why is this a response to what I said, it has nothing to do with it in any way. You seem very unfocused and scattered around. Desperate for a win, even.

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You know you're still responding to me, right? This is the second time you've said you're done now, and something tells me I'll see another post from you to me yet, because you can't help yourself.

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I'd contend that these are just forms of dehumanizing people which is the real root of most human-on-human evils but you cheerlead the act so obviously you don't agree. Guess as long as it's not racist or sexist it's all on the level

Literally bringing up the Boy Scouts and then proceeding to give a "look what you made us do!" argument. Fantastic.

Sad_Face posted...

And the implication of not enforcing any gender norm means there will be no standard for what a man is.

That actually raises a good point, which is that the end consequence of no gender norms is basically men almost never doing things women actually like, like chivalry, providing, protecting, approaching, etc. because it's simply all been phased out of culture. Women suffer this probably more than men, actually

Hard to imagine what hetero relationships would even look like with fully homogenized genders

Sillyface_Mcdum posted...

That actually raises a good point

It's dumb point.

One based on a lazy false dichotomy.

EthanSilver posted...

It's dumb point.

Haha

I am writing so much but I don't know if we have a consensus on the statement "Women control access to sex, men control access to relationships".

Sillyface_Mcdum posted...

That actually raises a good point, which is that the end consequence of no gender norms is basically men almost never doing things women actually like, like chivalry, providing, protecting, approaching, etc. because it's simply all been phased out of culture. Women suffer this probably more than men, actually

Hard to imagine what hetero relationships would even look like with fully homogenized genders

Now I'm reminded of that one Tiktok of a girl lamenting about liberal guys completely treating her as an equal in every sense while conservative guys do stuff like holding the door, offer to pay for her meal, but they're conservatives. I am very curious to know how many ladies echo her sentiments.

Sillyface_Mcdum posted...

Haha

It's true though.

One can both encourage certain things/traits, while at the same time not being a zealot or rigid about them. Take crossdressing as an example. Nothing innately objectively "wrong" with it. Even if it's not the norm.

In simple terms, "live and let live." Yeah?

Because the alternatives presented to challenge the established gender norms are causing more harm than success (the example I gave of feminizing men and the point of deprecation of chastity till marriage gender norm being exploited), we have a rapidly growing population of men who suffer from being either directionless, can't figure out their life, can't find a girl to call their own, and are checking out of society. The general populace isn't helping them as we don't have strong male role models to aspire to be like and so they will eventually gravitate to the redpill society and follow peeps like Fresh and Fit or Andrew Tate. Or they go through extremely drastic measures in the opposite direction to find acceptance with the current status quo.

Makes sense?

Bro. What. No.

Now I'm reminded of that one Tiktok of a girl lamenting about liberal guys completely treating her as an equal in every sense while conservative guys do stuff like holding the door, offer to pay for her meal, but they're conservatives. I am very curious to know how many ladies echo her sentiments.

Yea, believing this definitely tracks.

Sad_Face posted...

Now I'm reminded of that one Tiktok of a girl lamenting about liberal guys completely treating her as an equal in every sense while conservative guys do stuff like holding the door, offer to pay for her meal, but they're conservatives. I am very curious to know how many ladies echo her sentiments.

You're full of lazy generalizations aren't you? Is it how you cope with your beliefs?

Liberal here who holds doors.

Bet your world view just shuttered.