Current Events > SMRPG might be the easiest and most shallow rpg ever.....

(+) Yeah! (+)

Homeless_Waifu posted...

especially the new ones

Newer ones are, on average, much harder than older ones.

ellis123 posted...

Newer ones are, on average, much harder than older ones.

Are they? If you gave someone who never played either, which do you think they'd get farther in, Phantasy Star II, or Trails of Cold Steel?

ellis123 posted...

Newer ones are, on average, much harder than older ones.

You think so?
I find a lot of JRPG's pretty easy these days, because there's many ways to gain EXP. Like many have side quests where you just look for items, kill x amount if monster/defeat certain mob and instantaneous EXP.
Lot of older JRPG's tend to be grindy, and should you not grind for that EXP enemies will eventually beat you because their base stats overwhelmed your current stats. Maybe better armor/weps could help but sometimes some games have those types of equipment made to be found scarcely or can only be found after a certain event is cleared.

Either that or the game play is so slow because of "outdated" mechanics makes combat very slow...

LordMarshal posted...

Name an easier rpg.

Final Fantasy. All of them.

Homeless_Waifu posted...

You think so?
I find a lot of JRPG's pretty easy these days, because there's many ways to gain EXP. Like many have side quests where you just look for items, kill x amount if monster/defeat certain mob and instantaneous EXP.
Lot of older JRPG's tend to be grindy, and should you not grind for that EXP enemies will eventually beat you because their base stats overwhelmed your current stats. Maybe better armor/weps could help but sometimes some games have those types of equipment made to be found scarcely or can only be found after a certain event is cleared.

Yes. The vast majority of newer RPGs force "level blocks" that prevent you from overleveling what you are supposed to be at (FFXIII unlocking the crystarium, Chained Echoes locking "levels" behind boss fights, etc.) and feature fights that actively require that you play to the tune of the bosses horn rather than just "smash face into boss until it breaks." They are less grindy, yes, but that just is tedium and not difficulty. Killing 100 slimes may make the boss a complete joke, but it does let you inflate an arbitrary number. Similarly modern games tend to use gear that fits into styles of play while older ones are just raw stats. And unless you are an elementary school student being able to tell which is the bigger number isn't a struggle. On the flip side doing algebra for elemental/damage type modifiers at least pretends to be something resembling difficulty.

As a kid I remember having trouble in a number of parts (fighting the Axem Rangers for one) but it always felt just challenging enough

I dont remember if I had a party/items that completely broke the game or not

Still one of my favorite games of all time though

Shamino posted...

Are they? If you gave someone who never played either, which do you think they'd get farther in, Phantasy Star II, or Trails of Cold Steel?

Whichever one they liked more. Even then it's an irrelevant concept. Whether or not a harder old game exists doesn't matter, the average does. I am saying that if you grabbed 100 random old and new RPGs the newer ones would end up being harder on average.

I never really understood the whole SMRPG being easy or simple thing.

I mean, even just in the realm of Mario RPGs, to me it seems like every other one is easier and simpler than the first. I always remembered being let down by how simple the future Mario RPGs were. Less stats, less equipment, less moves. So that alone knocks SMRPG out of the running.

Also you can avoid fights, and if you avoid a bunch of fights, then you will lose at bosses. Even going as early as the boss of world 1, the pogo stick guy, if you avoid fights prior to that, you'll lose. Meaning you have to actually level up. That right there knocks it out of the running for easiest RPG ever, because there are RPGs where you don't have to go out of your way to level up.

And I distinctly remember there being hard bosses in the game. The Power Ranger guys, for instance. Some other ones if you're not ready. Maybe the giant squid or Yardovich or something.

ellis123 posted...

Whichever one they liked more. Even then it's an irrelevant concept. Whether or not a harder old game exists doesn't matter, the average does. I am saying that if you grabbed 100 random old and new RPGs the newer ones would end up being harder on average.

I really doubt it. Did you play old school rpgs, in particular, those on pc?

Newer RPGs, especially JRPGs shepherd players and it's almost impossible to get stuck somewhere. You might not be able to over level an area, but you will be able to find the next objective easily. There's an ingame map, there's quest markers. There's a journal.

This isn't the case with old RPGs. Hell, you could massively over level in Wizardry 7, but if you didn't find the items you needed and figure out what to do with them you were toast. RPGs were really obscure back in the day, and let me point out, there was no internet to help you. So if you didn't have the hint book either you stayed stuck forever at a roadblock, or you figured out yourself that at this exact spot in the forest, you planted a tree that you found in another area, which created a bridge to another area.
Even with something like Phantasy Star 2, you have to know exactly where you are going and what to do. There's no handrails like in (J)RPGs today. There's no quest journal, no map marker, no map period in most really old rpgs unless they came with a paper or cloth one. If you get lost and stuck, tough, either figure it out or quit, or get the hint book.

Albert Odyssey: Legend of Eldean

Shamino posted...

I really doubt it. Did you play old school rpgs, in particular, those on pc?

Yes. It is why you will commonly find me posting every time a CRPG topic comes up.

Shamino posted...

Newer RPGs, especially JRPGs shepherd players and it's almost impossible to get stuck somewhere. You might not be able to over level an area, but you will be able to find the next objective easily. There's an ingame map, there's quest markers. There's a journal.

This isn't the case with old RPGs. Hell, you could massively over level in Wizardry 7, but if you didn't find the items you needed and figure out what to do with them you were toast. RPGs were really obscure back in the day, and let me point out, there was no internet to help you. So if you didn't have the hint book either you stayed stuck forever at a roadblock, or you figured out yourself that at this exact spot in the forest, you planted a tree that you found in another area, which created a bridge to another area.
Even with something like Phantasy Star 2, you have to know exactly where you are going and what to do. There's no handrails like in (J)RPGs today. There's no quest journal, no map marker, no map period in most really old rpgs unless they came with a paper or cloth one. If you get lost and stuck, tough, either figure it out or quit, or get the hint book.

And the ability to get stuck somewhere is utterly irrelevant in this context. I could say "older RPGs aren't hard at all because they don't require you open the floor texture in a photo editing software in order to get to the end like in a new game" and it would be just as valid. In that vein the act of pointing out that the Internet didn't exist back then is just as valid as saying that you have no friends to talk to now: it does not matter when talking about the difficulty of the game in a vacuum. In all cases if a guide trivializes something is irrelevant when talking about the difficulty of a game as it creates a ridiculous bias against anything that is based on logical solving over mechanical. Like, King's Quest 3 is definitely the hardest game I've ever played but it is definitely something that isn't all that hard with a guide. The fact that you could do it then with a Prima, or whatever, doesn't matter: the game was brutal.

Similarly bringing up examples is irrelevant. "Old games are so easy with all the handholding because Crystal Project doesn't give you any" is just as dumb. Just because it is correct as an inverse of yours doesn't make it any less absurd. There are vastly more old RPGs along the vein of Earthbound and Final Fantasy than there are ones like Phantasy Star 2, it's as simple as that.

My two cents is new RPGs are WAY easier than old school RPGs.

I mean just look at Dragon Quest 11 vs Dragon Quest 2. Brain dead easy vs a super difficult RPG. That's a bit of an extreme example but it's sorta how I feel in general about the different difficulties of old and new RPGs.

spanky1 posted...

My two cents is new RPGs are WAY easier than old school RPGs.

I mean just look at Dragon Quest 11 vs Dragon Quest 2. Brain dead easy vs a super difficult RPG. That's a bit of an extreme example but it's sorta how I feel in general about the different difficulties of old and new RPGs.

Is that even a controversial take? Even classic FF was filled with random enemies who can party wipe you with death spells if RNG was unfavorable. The entire philosophy of the genre shifted from "the game is trying to kill you" to "the game is trying to guide you."

No TC it's the most Mallow game ever

s0nicfan posted...

Is that even a controversial take? Even classic FF was filled with random enemies who can party wipe you with death spells if RNG was unfavorable. The entire philosophy of the genre shifted from "the game is trying to kill you" to "the game is trying to guide you."

Yes, I agree, I'm talking to the poster who is saying old games are easier than new games.

*looks at the Elder Scrolls series, where pretty much each new game simplified everything*

rpgs were never that difficult. even old "hard" games like earthbound beginnings and dragon quest were really simple with really obvious answers. at most you'd struggle by lacking in stats or not having good equipment

also no, suikoden is way easier. you can be entirely unequipped and never run into random encounters and still bulldoze through the games with autobattle

spanky1 posted...

My two cents is new RPGs are WAY easier than old school RPGs.

I mean just look at Dragon Quest 11 vs Dragon Quest 2. Brain dead easy vs a super difficult RPG. That's a bit of an extreme example but it's sorta how I feel in general about the different difficulties of old and new RPGs.

Dragon Quest 11 is harder once Draconian Quests are taken into consideration. Inversely DQ2 isn't particularly hard in the grand scheme of the series outside of one particular dungeon (and if you've played it you know exactly which one I'm talking about).

s0nicfan posted...

Is that even a controversial take? Even classic FF was filled with random enemies who can party wipe you with death spells if RNG was unfavorable. The entire philosophy of the genre shifted from "the game is trying to kill you" to "the game is trying to guide you."

They also exist in modern FF's (XIII and XV come to mind there, though XII was a bit notorious for a couple of bosses that were BS in the same way). People just view them in the form of "if I don't like them, anything that they do doesn't count."

ellis123 posted...

Yes. It is why you will commonly find me posting every time a CRPG topic comes up.

And the ability to get stuck somewhere is utterly irrelevant in this context. I could say "older RPGs aren't hard at all because they don't require you open the floor texture in a photo editing software in order to get to the end like in a new game" and it would be just as valid. In that vein the act of pointing out that the Internet didn't exist back then is just as valid as saying that you have no friends to talk to now: it does not matter when talking about the difficulty of the game in a vacuum. In all cases if a guide trivializes something is irrelevant when talking about the difficulty of a game as it creates a ridiculous bias against anything that is based on logical solving over mechanical. Like, King's Quest 3 is definitely the hardest game I've ever played but it is definitely something that isn't all that hard with a guide. The fact that you could do it then with a Prima, or whatever, doesn't matter: the game was brutal.

Similarly bringing up examples is irrelevant. "Old games are so easy with all the handholding because Crystal Project doesn't give you any" is just as dumb. Just because it is correct as an inverse of yours doesn't make it any less absurd. There are vastly more old RPGs along the vein of Earthbound and Final Fantasy than there are ones like Phantasy Star 2, it's as simple as that.

What? The ability to get stuck in old rpgs will stop you from progressing, and therefore beating the game. You consider a game that can do that easier than one that has handrails?

Yeah it's easy but it's still fun. But I'd be lying if I didnt say I wish there was some challenge sometimes >_>

ellis123 posted...

Inversely DQ2 isn't particularly hard in the grand scheme of the series outside of one particular dungeon (and if you've played it you know exactly which one I'm talking about).

Which is only "hard" because the earlier versions put crippling level limits on the characters who are already squishy.

Shamino posted...

What? The ability to get stuck in old rpgs will stop you from progressing, and therefore beating the game. You consider a game that can do that easier than one that has handrails?

And you cannot get stuck with a hint book so it's all good.

Only my point was that the existence of the Internet + hint books should not be used as a crutch to deign what is allowed to be easy/hard and instead it should be on its own merits. Similarly being able to get stuck is pretty much universal, and if you only play RPGs with handrails that's entirely on you. Inversely acting like things like Chrono Trigger were not old games is pretty awkward. Or is it the act of literally having a quest log that matters and not the act of being flagrantly obvious where you were supposed to go that you cared about? Because I view difficulty through challenge, not really because games have been made with having a job in mind.

Like someone else said, who cares? It's a fun game that I can play repeatedly back to back when I first had it.

ellis123 posted...

And you cannot get stuck with a hint book so it's all good.

Only my point was that the existence of the Internet + hint books should not be used as a crutch to deign what is allowed to be easy/hard and instead it should be on its own merits. Similarly being able to get stuck is pretty much universal, and if you only play RPGs with handrails that's entirely on you. Inversely acting like things like Chrono Trigger were not old games is pretty awkward. Or is it the act of literally having a quest log that matters and not the act of being flagrantly obvious where you were supposed to go that you cared about? Because I view difficulty through challenge, not really because games have been made with having a job in mind.

Almost all new RPGs have handrails, that's my point. You can't get stuck in them. It has nothing to do with me. Trails, Tails, DQ, FF, Witcher, etc all have handrails. You can't get stuck anywhere due to game mechanics.
And furthermore, almost all new RPGs also have difficulty options, something that very few old RPGs had.

Yet you still claim that newer RPGs are harder than old ones?

And what is this about Chrono Trigger not being an old game, who said that? How did that come up?

ellis123 posted...

RPGs back then were baby mode, and this is an RPG.

*looks at FF4*

...Define what you mean by baby mode.

LordMarshal posted...

Name an easier rpg.

Rhapsody.

I win! Makes SMRPG and Mystic Quest look like Super Meat Boy.

Sephiroth_C_Ryu posted...

*looks at FF4*

...Define what you mean by baby mode.

FFIV was easy to anyone used to RPGs and is easy to anyone now.

Shamino posted...

Almost all new RPGs have handrails, that's my point. You can't get stuck in them. It has nothing to do with me. Trails, Tails, DQ, FF, Witcher, etc all have handrails. You can't get stuck anywhere due to game mechanics.
And furthermore, almost all new RPGs also have difficulty options, something that very few old RPGs had.

Yet you still claim that newer RPGs are harder than old ones?

And what is this about Chrono Trigger not being an old game, who said that? How did that come up?

And almost all RPGs back then had handrails as well. But unlike older ones there were no difficulty options: they were just piss easy period. Similarly I don't disagree that there new ones that have them, it's just you being unwilling to accept that old ones were the same. Every last big name series is predicated on being easy, hence why the hardest FF's were not brought over as they failed to sell: the best selling games were always the easiest ones, and pointing out that new ones are still doing it only serves to prove the point. Chrono Trigger came up in that context as it is one of the popular older games yet clearly fits snuggly with your list of series' that are easy. The main issue is that you seem to ignore literally any and all RPGs that go against what you are saying for some reason.

ellis123 posted...

FFIV was easy to anyone used to RPGs and is easy to anyone now.

And almost all RPGs back then had handrails as well. But unlike older ones there were no difficulty options: they were just piss easy period. Similarly I don't disagree that there new ones that have them, it's just you being unwilling to accept that old ones were the same. Every last big name series is predicated on being easy, hence why the hardest FF's were not brought over as they failed to sell: the best selling games were always the easiest ones, and pointing out that new ones are still doing it only serves to prove the point. Chrono Trigger came up in that context as it is one of the popular older games yet clearly fits snuggly with your list of series' that are easy. The main issue is that you seem to ignore literally any and all RPGs that go against what you are saying for some reason.

Do you understand what handrails are?
Everquest had zero handrails. Vanilla WoW was chock full of them.
Ultima had zero handrails. Among other things, you can die from lack of food, or use quest items incorrect and ruin and entire play through
Trails of Cold Steel does have hand rails. You can't use quest items wrong (afaik).

See the difference?

It's literally impossible these days to soft or hard lock yourself in an rpg these days, something that was very easy and common in the old days.

ellis123 posted...

FFIV was easy to anyone used to RPGs and is easy to anyone now.

It is somewhat infamous as being one of the harder ones. At least, originally. They did make it easier.

Shamino posted...

Do you understand what handrails are?
Everquest had zero handrails. Vanilla WoW was chock full of them.
Ultima had zero handrails. Among other things, you can die from lack of food, or use quest items incorrect and ruin and entire play through
Trails of Cold Steel does have hand rails. You can't use quest items wrong (afaik).

See the difference?

So like Baldur's Gate. Gotcha.

Only we have to act like games from over 20 years ago are/aren't new because of arbitrary nonsense, while also making vapid points about how the inclusion of quest logs are literally the only things that act as difficulty. Ninja Gaiden was just too easy for being a linear experience that was effectively on rails, or whatever your point is.

Very_Snappy posted...

Rhapsody.

I win! Makes SMRPG and Mystic Quest look like Super Meat Boy.

Not for completionist purposes though.

Some of those rare monsters taking forever to recruit.

Then again, even SMRPG has that bullshit 100 Super Jumps in a row challenge.

ellis123 posted...

So like Baldur's Gate. Gotcha.

Only we have to act like games from over 20 years ago are/aren't new because of arbitrary nonsense, while also making vapid points about how the inclusion of quest logs are literally the only things that act as difficulty. Ninja Gaiden was just too easy for being a linear experience that was effectively on rails, or whatever your point is.

What arbitrary nonsense?

Did I mention Ninja Gaiden?

Apparently you don't understand what I mean by handrails. I'm not saying games are literally on rails, as in you go from one point to another in a set way. I'm talking about handrails, as In things that prevent players from completely screwing themselves, hence why I mentioned EverQuest and WoW.
Everquest had no handrails. No ingame map or quest journal. You could lose your corpse, all your levels, your gear, and ruin your faction with with every npc faction, even your own if you wanted.

WoW is chock full of handrails. You can't lose your corpse, there's a map, and a quest journal, you can't lose your body, and you can't attack your own faction.

And how about instead of just saying "like Baldur's Gate" you explain what you mean.

Questionmarktarius posted...

any given Disgaea

Makes a team of ten Kagutsuchi with all Baal gear.

Ez 0 grind mode

I remember when a couple best friends called it a "baby game for babies," while checking the guides for the most broken items in the game....and getting stuck on areas that needed a run jump because they didn't know how to do that.