Current Events > The Star Ocean 3 twist is clever and gets undeserved hate *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Game doesn't get the respect it deserves for having the balls to do a Matrix twist. The guys making that game clearly watched that movie. I think it's cool that you find out you're in a simulation and kill the people trying to shut it off.

People say it makes the world meaningless but no, those characters matter. It's still their world. Their decisions affect it. They even save it

What happened wasn't the matrix. What happened was some fucking dipshit invented a video game that could bring itself to life.

It was alright.

The story was typical JRPG stuff up until the twist, so I appreciated it going balls-out insane.

Nah, it sucks. It undermines everything you've done til that point as pointless. And the higher beings in charge are just kids playing videogames GTFO with that.

Seriously i dont get it either. Clearly everyone is still sentient with real feelings, how does that take away from all the shit thats happened.

DATA SHOULD BEHAVE LIKE DATA!!!! *Proceeds to enter into a dramatic jrpg battle despite this moron being some shigeru miyamoto mother fucker and gets his ass kicked.*

*Jack-ass software engineer spazzes the fuck out for no reason and has a burning hatred for the video game characters from the MMO game he created. The plot never delves into a single reason WHY this guy actually dislikes his game characters gaining sentience enough to warp into his reality. If anything, his world's scientists would be awarding this guy all sorts of awards and prestige for creating this kind of game.*

Dudes ain't clever for hopping on the matrix hype train like every other person during the time period and then copy pasting bits of it's plot to make their own......which they didn't even flesh out in big bad luther's case.

I have always joked with my friends that what motivates the guy is his raid party despite spending up towards 48 hours fighting ethereal queen and freya got wiped and then it just mentally broke him.

The twist never bothered me. I was having too much fun with the battle system.

A good summary of the twist is to simply ask the question: is there a way that you can do the twist that is actually any better?

ellis123 posted...

A good summary of the twist is to simply ask the question: is there a way that you can do the twist that is actually any better?

Make the series written around it from the start and not an obvious retcon in a third entry.

With the other games in mind I get why it's hated but if you consider Star Ocean 3 self-contained story I love it too. The best part about the twist is that it's not an end-of-game twist, more like halfway-ish. And that second half where a party of sci-fi fantasy guys is wandering around trying to beat up game developer corporation mooks is so stupid it's great.

ellis123 posted...

A good summary of the twist is to simply ask the question: is there a way that you can do the twist that is actually any better?

Here's a different set of questions:

1. Does there really need to be a twist?
2. Why introduce a twist with catastrophic real world consequences in the last 2 hours of the game not leaving any time to expand upon what the result of genetic symbology brought them?

But to answer your question I suppose Tales of Xillia did something similar but better.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Does there really need to be a twist?

Irrelevant to the concept at hand. The question is about the quality of the twist, not whether or not writing needs to exist at all. Tetris clearly has already worked just fine.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Why introduce a twist with catastrophic real world consequences in the last 2 hours of the game not leaving any time to expand upon what the result of genetic symbology brought them?

Seeing as there was substantially more than two hours left I don't know how to respond to this. You can make a comment about how the story never went anywhere after the twist but that has less to do with the twist so much as being independent of the twist: Star Ocean's writing has always been a bit "hmmmm....".

Tyranthraxus posted...

But to answer your question I suppose Tales of Xillia did something similar but better.

And it, similarly, had backlash as well. Thus it is the same as here where personal taste is "dictating" quality.

BlueAnnihilator posted...

Make the series written around it from the start and not an obvious retcon in a third entry.

No other series with similar twists appears to have such stipulations, why is it a requirement here?

ellis123 posted...

Irrelevant to the concept at hand. The question is about the quality of the twist, not whether or not writing needs to exist at all. Tetris clearly has already worked just fine.

No. The question is about the quality of the story which would be improved by not having a nonsense twist at the end.

ellis123 posted...

Seeing as there was substantially more than two hours left I don't know how to respond to this. You can make a comment about how the story never went anywhere after the twist but that has less to do with the twist so much as being independent of the twist: Star Ocean's writing has always been a bit "hmmmm....".

There is not "substantially" more. There's like a few things to check off and then you go to the final dungeon. There's a lot of non story relevant content but it's obviously not relevant.

You can say the twist doesn't ruin the game, which it does not. The combat and other systems are all top notch, but the story is ruined which is a big deal for a story focused game.

ellis123 posted...

And it, similarly, had backlash as well. Thus it is the same as here where personal taste is "dictating" quality.

I don't remember any real backlash about the story. Most of the complaints of takes games in general boil down to game / combat systems. The stories tend to be average stuff despite twists.

Nah it deserves it

Even as a 12 year old kid playing SO3 for the first time when it came out I already knew from SO1 and SO2 that I shouldn't expect a whole lot from the story, but I should expect a whole lot from the gameplay. I was not disappointed.

Tyranthraxus posted...

No. The question is about the quality of the story which would be improved by not having a nonsense twist at the end.

ellis123 posted...

A good summary of the twist is to simply ask the question: is there a way that you can do the twist that is actually any better?

No, it very flagrantly is not.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I don't remember any real backlash about the story. Most of the complaints of takes games in general boil down to game / combat systems. The stories tend to be average stuff despite twists.

And I never really heard any complaints about the twist in Star Ocean until years later. The main difference at this point is that people complain about Star Ocean while they don't even bother to talk about Xillia.

That being the twist never bothered me. Plus it helps to actually finish the game to realize the whole picture.

But I do agree it was sloppily executed.

ellis123 posted...

And I never really heard any complaints about the twist in Star Ocean until years later. The main difference at this point is that people complain about Star Ocean while they don't even bother to talk about Xillia.

People don't talk about Xillia because there just isn't much to talk about these days anymore. The story evokes no particularly strong emotions either positive or negative. It's a self contained thing for the most part that leaves very little to question.

The same can be said for Star Ocean 2. Matter of fact Star Ocean 3 is pretty much the only one people talk about and mostly in a negative sense.

ellis123 posted...

No, it very flagrantly is not.

Yes it is. The twist cannot be evaluated in isolation of the story. The Tron movies have almost the exact same premise but it's not a twist in those movies, it's just the plot.

jrpgs are like drugs
the stronger the trip you know you got the good shit
gimme stupid ass stories and stupid fuckin battle systems all day
bioware and obsidian can suck dry cocks with their haughty bullshit

It was ahead of its time and when AI becomes much more advanced, people will look back and recognize it for its genius.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The same can be said for Star Ocean 2. Matter of fact Star Ocean 3 is pretty much the only one people talk about and mostly in a negative sense.

Naw. SO3 usually gets a split of people on both sides, just like right now.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Yes it is. The twist cannot be evaluated in isolation of the story. The Tron movies have almost the exact same premise but it's not a twist in those movies, it's just the plot.

And Tron's not being a twist means it doesn't work as a comparison. I am specifically pointing out that the complaints stem entirely from the act of using the plot point as a twist gets extreme backlash.

Similarly you are right that story isn't a vacuum, but as the entire point is that the twist must still exist for the question to be answered saying "remove the twist" doesn't work.

ellis123 posted...

"remove the twist"

https://youtu.be/1E1VY4KOghI

People tend to lose interest in plots if the big twist saved toward the end is that the world is in any way fictional, even though by their very nature they are fictional to us.

I liked it. Mainly because I found the main quest on that generic fantasy planet dreadfully boring.

What are you guys talking about with Xillia? That game had a normal been done kinda twist.

Two worlds connected. One dying yadda yadsa

Though I will say it feels like that game was about to end 3 times

All twists like that are bad. The ending of Danganronpa 3
was also bad.

If you look at it specifically from SO3 then ok sure it's not THAT bad. But it's applied to the entire series.

So, for example, God's Ten Wisemen were pretty much just a group of OP Elitist gamers sitting in their gamer chairs in the 4D world eating their 4D version of Cheetos.

Things like the Grigori, Stone Sickness, etc were computer viruses.

Sure, for the unknowing characters every threat was real, but the wall was destroyed.

Strider102 posted...

If you look at it specifically from SO3 then ok sure it's not THAT bad. But it's applied to the entire series.

So, for example, God's Ten Wisemen were pretty much just a group of OP Elitist gamers sitting in their gamer chairs in the 4D world eating their 4D version of Cheetos.

Things like the Grigori, Stone Sickness, etc were computer viruses.

Sure, for the unknowing characters every threat was real, but the wall was destroyed.

This. Star Ocean 3 was Tri-Ace shitting all over everything you had done and will do in other SO games. Totally killed it.

Blue_Inigo posted...

What are you guys talking about with Xillia? That game had a normal been done kinda twist.

Two worlds connected. One dying yadda yadsa

Though I will say it feels like that game was about to end 3 times

Xillia was the closest comparison I could think of in a moments notice. Dumbed down as much as possible:

Technology advances enough to permit breaking out of the world and into another one. It's just that in Xillia, you break into a parallel universe where spirits are extinct instead of breaking into a real world from inside of your fake video game.

Xillia however went on to say that machines aren't bad and compromises like spyrites can be made to help satisfy the needs of both spirits and people's need for technologically advancements.

In SO3 they drop a huge fucking bombshell that virtual things can be made real and then do nothing interesting with it while simultaneously altering the stories of the other titles to have different meanings than when originally written.

Xenogears15 posted...

This. Star Ocean 3 was Tri-Ace shitting all over everything you had done and will do in other SO games. Totally killed it.

No, they were posing philosophical questions on what is real and why things matter. If you think it doesn't matter because it's just a game... well, I've got news for you.

Strider102 posted...

If you look at it specifically from SO3 then ok sure it's not THAT bad. But it's applied to the entire series.

So, for example, God's Ten Wisemen were pretty much just a group of OP Elitist gamers sitting in their gamer chairs in the 4D world eating their 4D version of Cheetos.

Things like the Grigori, Stone Sickness, etc were computer viruses.

Sure, for the unknowing characters every threat was real, but the wall was destroyed.

Exactly. I agree when others say something like "it wouldn't have been that bad if it was a jrpg that existed as it's own thing and not a part of a series 3 games in (can't forget about the canon gameboy color sequel to star ocean 2 blue sphere)". Its the kind of twist that no matter how hard you try to consider it being "its own thing for this one star ocean game", its always a thing that is in the background and as of now a canon part of the storyline. Star ocean 2's lucifer and the shit he dealt with from the nede government and losing his daughter, its just some 4D random NPC on a role-play server, lol.

You can take any other jrpg series that has sequels, arc the lad or lunar for example, add a "yeah this was a mmo game in a lower tier universe" twist and no series would be better for it since it just wouldn't make sense.

Now I am laughing at the idea of this shoe-horned into any jrpg number sequel. Breath of fire 4, you meet up with all the endless and its time to settle who is in control of the fou-lu and ryu fusion......but it was all a MMO game in the 3D universe. Xenosaga 3, it was a MMO game in the 3D universe. Arc the lad 2, it was a MMO game in the 3D universe, phantasy star 4 a fellow sci-fi jrpg series, yeah lets see how much phantasy star fans will like a it was a MMO game in the 3D universe twist, lol.

1337toothbrush posted...

No, they were posing philosophical questions on what is real and why things matter. If you think it doesn't matter because it's just a game... well, I've got news for you.

And said questions were presented more than three-quarters into the game and never truly expounded upon to have real meaning. Yeah no, that was a miss.

Xenogears15 posted...

And said questions were presented more than three-quarters into the game and never truly expounded upon to have real meaning. Yeah no, that was a miss.

The lesson being that you must push forward even when your world is turned upside-down. It's an inspiring tale of perseverance and forging your own path even in a world where your individual actions may not matter.

1337toothbrush posted...

The lesson being that you must push forward even when your world is turned upside-down. It's an inspiring tale of perseverance and forging your own path even in a world where your individual actions may not matter.

However inspiring that may or may not be, you can't deny that the way it was presented was...a little hamfisted. If it wasn't a last minute plot twist I feel it could have landed a lot better.

Xenogears15 posted...

However inspiring that may or may not be, you can't deny that the way it was presented was...a little hamfisted. If it wasn't a last minute plot twist I feel it could have landed a lot better.

I can't confirm or deny because I didn't actually play the game.

I'm sort of curious if the plottwist was planned from the start, or if the producer/director at the time said "hey guys, let's fuck with player's mind!" at the last second.

1337toothbrush posted...

I can't confirm or deny because I didn't actually play the game.

...for someone that didn't play the game you sure seem to have some opinions on it. I'm curious as to why you even responded.

Xenogears15 posted...

...for someone that didn't play the game you sure seem to have some opinions on it. I'm curious as to why you even responded.

For giggles.

The problem is the game gets boring before and after the twist

Requiem posted...

I'm sort of curious if the plottwist was planned from the start, or if the producer/director at the time said "hey guys, let's fuck with player's mind!" at the last second.

Some are kinda speculating it was planned, because apparently certain characters in 1 and 2 felt "off" and somehow knew things they weren't supposed to.

CARRRNE_ASADA posted...

Nah, it sucks. It undermines everything you've done til that point as pointless. And the higher beings in charge are just kids playing videogames GTFO with that.

Agreed. Fuck SO3.

1337toothbrush posted...

I can't confirm or deny because I didn't actually play the game.

I played the game. You're wrong.

star ocean 3 is one of my fave games of all time i wish it could get a remaster

AceMos posted...

star ocean 3 is one of my fave games of all time i wish it could get a remaster

I doubt they will remaster any of them at this point.

Nah, the twist sucks ass.

My favorite twist in video game history happens in Fire Emblem IV

My thought when I first saw it huh, OK. I was more upset I was stuck on backwater planets when I should be space traveling more. I know that it was thier gimmick but I guess it didn't invalidate the game or the series at the time.

They did that with Star Ocean 5, eyyyyyyy. I didn't hate it but after awhile I felt it was a waste of my time, and better games were coming out.

I feel like so many people in this topic miss the point of the twist and how forward thinking it was.

It isn't a Matrix thing, it's a commentary on AI. Like, at what point will we, with our technology, create AI that is essentially a new form of life? What if we did that on the scale where we controlled their entire existence and they could not escape that?

That is basically what the twist is all about, and it rightfully kinda points out that we would be fucking horrific assholes to this new life we create. XD

Ai sure has advanced a lot since the Matrix and Star Ocean: Third Story.