Current Events > 4 day work week

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LowRyder2005 posted...

who fundamentally agree with them

You claim to fundamentally agree yet you say:

LowRyder2005 posted...

It ain't this panacea that will work in making life better for everyone indiscriminatedly if tomorrow all businesses change their schedules. This is incredibly naive,

The thing is, there is nothing to work out like you are claiming. The world is already ready for it.
We already went through this.
You gave no legitimate reason why it would be naive.

LowRyder2005 posted...

OP somehow managed to turn this exchange into a heated defense of me not being the dirty, unethical bourgeoisie obstructing the downtrodden proletariat, through selective quoting and non-sequiturs.

Oh poor you!

You got asked to clarify! Then refused to and after several exchanges got called out on false information!

LowRyder2005 posted...

Fine. I got it wrong; the problem was that it wasn't cost-effective (I simply read about the increased hours, and assumed they worked less days). Doesn't change a damn thing about the argument, in that there are well-document pitfalls with 4-day workweeks. Do you know what happens whan a company loses money by investing in things that are not profitable? They either increase revenue, or they cut costs. Many times, cutting costs involves cutting employees. Are you essentially advocating that we should implement 4-day weeks universally and immediately, and it'd be fine to lay off later on because revenue or the bottom line contracts?

Literally the system being worried about = worrying about the bottom line.

You never suggested otherwise since I pointed that out.

But here is the crazy thing:
Doesn't change a damn thing about the argument

Literally went from worrying about workers stress to claiming companies can't make enough profits. Keyword enough, they still make profit.

worker stress completely different than company profit, it changes everything

The thing is, there is nothing to work out like you are claiming. The world is already ready for it.

Pro-tip: if you call out on a claim, which is actually a possibility, the counter-argument is to dismantle the possibility, not putting forth a bold claim of your own.

You gave no legitimate reason why it would be naive.

Except the actual scenarios in which it did not work out for the customers or for the organization, like in Utah and in Sweden? Do I need to Google how many more examples? 5, 10, 20? Your argument was literally that it was a no-brainer to switch for everyone.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90775215/why-this-company-ditched-its-four-day-workweek
https://theconversation.com/five-reasons-why-the-four-day-week-wont-work-188188
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/2022/04/25/flexibility-not-fridays-why-the-four-day-work-week-doesnt-work/

The facts are already out there: there have been trials in which this worked, and others in which this didn't. There are proponents, and people who are more skeptical.

While we can be moderately optmistic about this being implemented, and will ultimately have more answers with widespread adoption, it seems more like you have a personal stake in this, and can't wait to see this implemented for personal reasons or personal dissatisfaction. This is considering how ridiculously hyper-defensive you are.

Oh poor you!

You got asked to clarify! Then refused to and after several exchanges got called out on false information!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Your argument... or lack thereof, because all your posts are empty air and worthless anti-corporate drivel I'd expect form someone who hates their job and needs someone to blame, already got dismantled. You could avoid doubling-down on being a sore, immature loser.

Case in point: the only rhetorical tactic left is harping on a detail I got wrong, clarified immediately, and that did not change the argument in the slightest. Textbook red herring.

Again, your obsession for obfuscation only betrays the fact that you are the one clearly in bad faith. You are not doing yourself any favor there, champ.

Literally the system being worried about being the bottom line.

You never suggested otherwise since I pointed that out.

But here is the crazy thing:
Doesn't change a damn thing about the argument

Literally went from worrying about workers stress to claiming companies can't make enough profits. Keyword enough, they still make profit.

This again? I didn't make "stress" the underpinning of my argument, LOL. I clearly talked about "long-term effects on the entire system (the business or organizations)" in the very first post. Learn. To read. The posts you comment on.

If people want to standardize 32 hour work weeks, I'd be fine with that, but fuck anything more than 8 hours in one day.

LowRyder2005 posted...

Except the actual scenarios in which it did not work out for the customers or for the organization, like in Utah and in Sweden?

You said Sweden before then we visited that and found you were wrong and you admitted it.

Now you go back to that?

Yea seems you are being dishonest....

But sure, you can find articles shoddily written that bash 4 day work week just like there is a mountain of articles claiming young people HATE remote work. Guess who makes these articles you love to parrot?

You said Sweden before then we visited that and found you were wrong and you admitted it.

So many red herrings you could host a fish buffet and call it "desperation at sea".

No. I wasn't wrong about Sweden ruling that the trial had showed 4-week was not sustainable or practical for their nurses. My tenet was that there were cases in which it didn't work; you are the one who tried to move the goalpoast to me talking about "stress" only. As if we lived in a world in which the only thing that matters is employee engagement, and not ensuring continuity of service for those poor idiots buying from you, among a plethora of other things.

But I wouldn't even need to prove this if we focused on employees only. Again, in this very topic you have people who'd avoid a 10/4 workweek, which is by definition a 4-day week. You've literally set the stage for your arguments already being proven wrong, and are just circling around and trying to redirect the attention on inconsequential bullcrap.

What you've also proven to be rather incompetent at is addressing a theoretical scenario in which, by giving bad service and undermining revenue, a company would lay off employees. Some businesses may clearly be unfit for this, or would face an increase in costs.

I can already picture your act: first, you'd be here bitching about how long it takes for you to get your cheeseburger and fries at the local joint because 20% less frontline workers at all times, means workers can't physically cover for everyone, assuming a basic rotation is in place. Then, of course, you'd be here moaning about something like: "gah, they could hire more people, instead it's all about their profits!". Then they hire, but then the business fails a year later because it can't stay profitable with so many employees to pay for a higher hourly rate. Everyone is laid off. The obvious adverse effects on the economy are that you don't have any cheeseburger, and that the unemployment rate rises. So you are here again bitching again about how "these inept managers made my cheesburger go away, and laid off all these people!".

Overall, yeah. Maybe leave the discussion on nuanced topics to grown-ups.

But sure, you can find articles shoddily written that bash 4 day work week just like there is a mountain of articles claiming young people HATE remote work. Guess who makes these articles you love to parrot?

Behold, everyone: More "us vs. them" and trying to discredit the sources, which includes actual CEOs, the results of practical experiments, and Economics PhDs.

They also say this with a straight face, while posting stuff straight from an organization actively lobbying for the 4-day week. Please, stop.

I have a 4 day work week, and though one day off is in the middle of the week... it's nice.

Just for funsies, I asked ChatGPT about a few more "shoddy articles in which the 4-day week ultimately proved unbeneficial" to give our awesome OP more food for thought. In case you're interested, this is what was provided.

1. Healthcare Services: In an article for HealthLeaders, writer Christopher Cheney describes how some healthcare organizations struggled with staffing shortages and decreased productivity when implementing a four-day workweek for nurses. One nurse manager reported that "the patients, families, and physicians were not very happy" with the reduced hours, and that it was difficult to provide adequate coverage over the shorter workweek. (Source: https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/clinical-care/can-4-day-workweek-work-nurses)
2. Customer Service: In an op-ed for the New York Times, writer Liz Alderman discusses how a four-day workweek for French public sector workers led to increased wait times and decreased customer satisfaction at government agencies. Alderman notes that "unhappy customers and long lines at understaffed offices are becoming symbols of the change." (Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/16/world/europe/france-4-day-workweek.html)
3. Manufacturing or Production: In a study published in the Journal of Organizational Behavior, researchers found that a four-day workweek for factory workers led to decreased productivity and output, especially in industries where "time is the most important input" (such as automotive manufacturing). The researchers noted that "while employees may appreciate a shorter workweek, the implications for firms and the economy may be negative." (Source: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/job.2373)
4. Small Businesses: In an article for the Harvard Business Review, writer Ryan Carson describes how his company struggled with implementing a four-day workweek due to staffing and scheduling issues. Carson notes that "if even one person is out, the whole team is thrown off" and that "the stress of covering for one another was taking a toll." (Source: https://hbr.org/2020/10/the-challenges-and-benefits-of-a-4-day-workweek)
5. Education: In an article for Education Week, writer Madeline Will describes how a four-day school week in rural Colorado led to increased childcare costs for working parents and decreased academic performance for some students. One parent noted that "the shortened week has a negative impact on learning" and that "kids forget too much over the long weekend." (Source: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/a-4-day-school-week-has-drawbacks-but-some-rural-districts-are-considering-it-anyway/2019/05)
6. Retail: In an op-ed for the Wall Street Journal, writer Chris Jacobsen argues that a four-day workweek for retail workers could lead to increased labor costs for businesses and decreased flexibility for customers. Jacobsen notes that "customers expect stores to be open seven days a week, and retailers need to have employees working on weekends and holidays." (Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-four-day-workweek-is-an-unrealistic-pipe-dream-11555913400)
7. Law Enforcement: In an article for the Los Angeles Times, writer Cindy Chang describes how a four-day workweek for LAPD officers led to increased overtime costs and decreased morale among officers. One officer noted that "the four-day week sounds great in theory, but it's a pain in the butt" and that "the overtime is just too much." (Source: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-09/la-me-lapd-schedule-change)
8. Finance: In an op-ed for Forbes, writer Michael Smith argues that a four-day workweek for finance professionals could lead to decreased availability and responsiveness for clients. Smith notes that "clients expect their financial advisors to be available when they need them, not just during regular business hours" and that "a four-day workweek would make it harder to meet those expectations." (Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelsmith2/2021/07/12/the-four-day-workweek-is-not-a-good-fit-for-financial-professionals/?sh=17d9cc9d75c2)
9. Food Service: In an article for Eater, writer Meghan McCarron describes how a four-day workweek for restaurant employees could lead to increased stress and burnout, as well as decreased customer satisfaction. McCarron notes that "diners don't care about your shorter week" and that "restaurants need to be open when customers want to eat." (Source: https://www.eater.com/2019/9/10/20858385/restaurant-four-day-work-week)
10. Technology: In an article for Inc., writer Ilan Mochari describes how a four-day workweek for tech startups could lead to decreased productivity and competitiveness in a fast-moving industry. Mochari notes that "the tech world doesn't stop for weekends" and that "companies that operate on a four-day week might struggle to keep up with their competitors." (Source: https://www.inc.com/ilan-mochari/four-day-workweek-tech-startup-success-alexis-ohanian.html)
11. Transportation: In an op-ed for the Chicago Tribune, writer Eric Zorn argues that a four-day workweek for public transit workers could lead to decreased reliability and safety for commuters. Zorn notes that "public transportation needs to be reliable and available every day" and that "cutting back on work hours could compromise that reliability." (Source: https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/ct-column-four-day-workweek-cta-metra).

Pretty funny to find more or less my exact cheeseburger example at #9.

But sure, OP. Keep reminding us about how literally everyone is ready, how literally everyone wants it, how it's better for literally everyone, and how we literally don't need any kind of tailored approach to understand which industries or functions are better-suited for the switch. Did I emphasize "literally" enough?

Nemu posted...

If people want to standardize 32 hour work weeks, I'd be fine with that, but fuck anything more than 8 hours in one day.

I agree with you however some people want a 9 or 10 hr day so they get 4 days but also 40 hrs. Should be an option if they want it.