Current Events > Was gaming better in 2002 or today?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Naysaspace posted...

today it is prohibitively expensive, and that's only if you can find a system on the shelves. there are more PS4 players than PS5 players, several years after PS5 launch. That has never happened before for prior gens.

The PS2 sold 57 million consoles after the PS3 launch.

PS5 is only trailing behind the PS4 due to supply chain issues. Not really sure what you're basing this on tbh

ellis123 posted...

Not really, no. What changed was people's willingness to accept horribly broken games.

That's what led to the Atari Crash early in Video Game History.

Nintendo solved that by gurantee-ing a certain level of "Quality" that the game worked functionally.
The Nintendo seal of approval.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Based on what? It's a lot easier to find out what the glitches and bugs are now.

But most games had to work the first time you popped in the disc/cartridge, or else the customer would refund it.

Regardless of whether the game was "Good or Not", the game should've worked functionally.

Like I bought an original Xbox to play JSRF last year. Turns out that game doesn't work on the newest models of Xbox for whatever reason. That was the first game I tried.

Backwards compatibility is a difficult beast to solve.

More time for gaming back in 2002

There wasnt day 1 on disk DLC in 2002

there werent losers trying to say that MTX isnt pay to win because of some trashy what are you winning gotcha in 2002

games were generally tested before release in 2002

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

That's what led to the Atari Crash early in Video Game History.

Nintendo solved that by gurantee-ing a certain level of "Quality" that the game worked functionally.
The Nintendo seal of approval.

But most games had to work the first time you popped in the disc/cartridge, or else the customer would refund it.

Regardless of whether the game was "Good or Not", the game should've worked functionally.

Backwards compatibility is a difficult beast to solve.

I'm not referring to backwards compatibility. JSRF is broken on the 480p resolution on the 1.6 model Xbox.

People forget or didn't notice things like this.

Also yeah there are games like the recent COD that requires a day one download to work but in 2002 Activision was a cheapo shovelware company that usually released trash if it wasn't Tony Hawk or Spider-man. They've always had issues.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

Nintendo solved that by gurantee-ing a certain level of "Quality" that the game worked functionally.
The Nintendo seal of approval.

The Seal of Quality just meant that the developers accepted Nintendos rules, it had nothing to do with the quality of the game.
Or do you believe that games like Back to the Future, Ghostbusters 2, Terminator, etc lacked the Nintendo Seal of Quality?

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

That's what led to the Atari Crash early in Video Game History.

Nintendo solved that by gurantee-ing a certain level of "Quality" that the game worked functionally.
The Nintendo seal of approval.

And also led to Pokemon Red/Blue: a game with the Nintendo Seal of Approval that was so buggy that it is a legitimate challenge run to play the game without hitting at least one bug. In fact, if you really look at it the crash had basically nothing to do with buggy games at all and instead it was just out and out crappy ones (stuff like ET wasn't buggy... it was just crap). Making the Nintendo comparison utterly irrelevant, doubly so when you consider that plenty of crappy games were made with the label anyways.

ellis123 posted...

And also led to Pokemon Red/Blue: a game with the Nintendo Seal of Approval that was so buggy that it is a legitimate challenge run to play the game without hitting at least one bug.

I've played both multiple times, and don't recall any noticeable bugs outside of maybe some moves not working the way you'd expect.

MissingNo. is the only major glitch that I could see some one stumbling on to.

Foppe posted...

The Seal of Quality just meant that the developers accepted Nintendos rules, it had nothing to do with the quality of the game.
Or do you believe that games like Back to the Future, Ghostbusters 2, Terminator, etc lacked the Nintendo Seal of Quality?

Yeah, you're right, Nintendo had to have "Checked & Approved" of all Video games released on the NES back then.

It had nothing to do with if the game was Good/Bad.
The only thing it determined was did the game work properly, did it run properly.

ellis123 posted...

And also led to Pokemon Red/Blue: a game with the Nintendo Seal of Approval that was so buggy that it is a legitimate challenge run to play the game without hitting at least one bug. In fact, if you really look at it the crash had basically nothing to do with buggy games at all and instead it was just out and out crappy ones (stuff like ET wasn't buggy... it was just crap). Making the Nintendo comparison utterly irrelevant, doubly so when you consider that plenty of crappy games were made with the label anyways.

I'm talking about the original NES era "Nintendo Seal of Quality".

https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Nintendo_Seal

The Official Nintendo Seal (called Original Nintendo Seal of Quality in Europe, previously Nintendo Seal of Quality in North America) is a seal that is put on all Nintendo video games, accessories, consoles, and so on that say that Nintendo has checked and licensed the selected item. The seal also appears either on the cover or within the pages of every volume of Nintendo Power magazine.
Brief history
A main reason for the video game industry crash of 1983 was the uprise of infamously bad games on the market, most notably E.T. for the Atari 2600, which was heavily advertised and consumers lost faith in the industry after. Nintendo, when creating the NES, forced many measures on developers and retailers. To ensure to the public that Nintendo games will always be of high quality, the Seal was first added in America and then later put in games in Europe and Australia. Only unlicensed Nintendo games don't get the seal. Hiroshi Yamauchi manually approved or disproved of every NES game licensed to Nintendo, but stopped after the NES era, resulting in the switch of names from "Official Nintendo Seal of Quality" to "Official Nintendo Seal".

https://www.mariowiki.com/Official_Nintendo_Seal

The Official Nintendo Seal, known in PAL regions as the Original Nintendo Seal of Quality and formerly known in NTSC regions as the Official Nintendo Seal of Quality, is on the back of every current Nintendo official merchandise of any kind. After the Video Game Crash of 1983, customers were wary of buying video games since most recent games were of poor quality. To counter this, Nintendo placed the Nintendo Seal of Quality on all of their merchandise. The term "Seal of Quality" was somewhat misleading, in that it determined the quality of the hardware rather than the software; its presence indicated that a game would run as intended on the Nintendo system it was designed for without bricking the latter. The Seal was also used to distinguish legitimate commercial games from pirated knockoffs. In late-2003, Nintendo of America abandoned the "of Quality" part of the Seal's label, as by then consumers had come to understand that the presence of the Seal did not indicate how good or bad an approved game was.

The original variant is used for games and various game-related hardware, such as alternate controllers. The "Licensed Product" seal is used for all other licensed products, including apparel, home entertainment releases, third party guides, and even SD cards.

Best part is that you were only allowed to release 5 games per year on the Nes.
Konami lyckily bypassed it by releasing games under the Ultra Games label, otherwise we would have missed lots of classics.

The only thing I really remember doing in 2002 is having my life consumed by phantasy star online on the dreamcast and again on the gamecube with episode 1 and 2.

They released new revisions of games all the time back then.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

I'm talking about the original NES era "Nintendo Seal of Quality".

So was I. Or were you expecting bringing up Nintendo's "the games are totally bug free guys" was going to cause Pokemon to be Thanos snapped or something?

ellis123 posted...

So was I. Or were you expecting bringing up Nintendo's "the games are totally bug free guys" was going to cause Pokemon to be Thanos snapped or something?

But how many "Game Breaking Bugs" were there on NES era games or previous games?

Most bugs that I've encountered were minimal or inconsequential.

I've only had one "Hard Bug" on PS1, and that was with Tales of Eternia.

That also only triggered with the PSone and not the original PS1.

It was weird, I entered a certain part of the World Map, and it'd lock up.

I was a teenager. Of course it was better.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

But how many "Game Breaking Bugs" were there on NES era games or previous games?

Most bugs that I've encountered were minimal or inconsequential.

I've only had one "Hard Bug" on PS1, and that was with Tales of Eternia.

That also only triggered with the PSone and not the original PS1.

It was weird, I entered a certain part of the World Map, and it'd lock up.

What *kind* of bug? Zelda II's fairy glitch (the one that destroys temples)? Super Mario Bros 3's disappearing airship in World 5? Kirby Adventure's crash glitch (the one in Orange Ocean 1's mini-boss)? Literally just Action 52?

I'm only bringing up well known games, and Action 52, as it's kind of the point: literally no game period during that era didn't have substantial bugs. And not just ones that are largely insubstantial: ones that out and out can render your file (and sometimes game) completely unusable. The games were dramatically better games than on the Atari, but they had plenty of game breaking bugs. If you can name a game on the NES you can be sure that there *will* be a glitch that lets you completely ruin your file. It may not be Pokemon-level in how easy it is to fall into, but it will exist.

Is it fair to bring up Action 52 when it was an unlicensed game?
That said, even loved games like Ducktales had a gamebreaking glitch even if most of you never ran into it.

https://youtu.be/QNvTWohCFjI

Even if 2002 gaming was better you can play 2002 games now still so 2022 is better.

Foppe posted...

Is it fair to bring up Action 52 when it was an unlicensed game?
That said, even loved games like Ducktales had a gamebreaking glitch even if most of you never ran into it.

Probably not, no, but it is a buggy a sin game (well, collection of games) on the NES.

ellis123 posted...

What *kind* of bug? Zelda II's fairy glitch (the one that destroys temples)? Super Mario Bros 3's disappearing airship in World 5? Kirby Adventure's crash glitch (the one in Orange Ocean 1's mini-boss)? Literally just Action 52?

I'm only bringing up well known games, and Action 52, as it's kind of the point: literally no game period during that era didn't have substantial bugs. And not just ones that are largely insubstantial: ones that out and out can render your file (and sometimes game) completely unusable. The games were dramatically better games than on the Atari, but they had plenty of game breaking bugs. If you can name a game on the NES you can be sure that there *will* be a glitch that lets you completely ruin your file. It may not be Pokemon-level in how easy it is to fall into, but it will exist.

But I've never encountered those bugs when I played, so it must've occured on occaision, not every single time, or not every player ran into those bugs during the testing phase.

The SMB3 and Kirby ones are pretty easy to execute by mistake.
Die on the airship on level 5, use a specific ability at a specific boss room.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

But I've never encountered those bugs when I played, so it must've occured on occaision, not every single time, or not every player ran into those bugs during the testing phase.

*And*? I barely see any bugs in modern games but you don't see me denying their existence.

And they were consistent. 100% of the time that you used the Fairy in Zelda II when off-screen it would destroy the temple, 100% of the time that you broke the platform in Kirby's Adventure it would brick the game, and Action 52 was a guaranteed buggy mess that literally starting some of the games would cause a crash because they weren't programmed in. Of the ones mentioned only the SMB3 one was inconsistent, but it was hardly rare and it was definitely something that could smack you out of nowhere.

ellis123 posted...

*And*? I barely see any bugs in modern games but you don't see me denying their existence.

And they were consistent. 100% of the time that you used the Fairy in Zelda II when off-screen it would destroy the temple, 100% of the time that you broke the platform in Kirby's Adventure it would brick the game, and Action 52 was a guaranteed buggy mess that literally starting some of the games would cause a crash because they weren't programmed in. Of the ones mentioned only the SMB3 one was inconsistent, but it was hardly rare and it was definitely something that could smack you out of nowhere.

Ok, then I didn't encounter those bugs.

::shrugs::

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

Ok, then I didn't encounter those bugs.

::shrugs::

That's the point. You didn't have YouTube videos and Twitter clips showing you day one how broken a game can be. Spider-man was listed before and people had fun but what if this was spread around when it came out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xRTFtw7qWk

Punished_Blinx posted...

That's the point. You didn't have YouTube videos and Twitter clips showing you day one how broken a game can be. Spider-man was listed before and people had fun but what if this was spread around when it came out?

I guess that's what we had at the time, so we dealt with it.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

I guess that's what we had at the time, so we dealt with it.

Naw, we were just young and had low standards. Just look at how people view glitches now versus then. Any glitch that came about back then was almost entirely beloved by the community (so long as it wasn't just literally "crashes your game"... and even then those were liked too) while nowadays basically none of the ones that aren't actively used in speedruns are hated (and even then the ones used in speedruns are hated by people who don't speedrun the games).

I bet you never got the Kill Screen in Donkey Kong, but you cant deny that it exist.
https://youtu.be/E1k_h1_gnFY

ellis123 posted...

Naw, we were just young and had low standards. Just look at how people view glitches now versus then. Any glitch that came about back then was almost entirely beloved by the community (so long as it wasn't just literally "crashes your game"... and even then those were liked too) while nowadays basically none of the ones that aren't actively used in speedruns are hated (and even then the ones used in speedruns are hated by people who don't speedrun the games).

What if somebody bothered to patch out those glitches in future revisions of old games?

What would happen? Would they cry bloody murder?

of fucking course ce loves shitty regional differences and non-global releases

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

What if somebody bothered to patch out those glitches in future revisions of old games?

What would happen? Would they cry bloody murder?

I mean, why view it as a theoretical when we already know what happens? People cried bloody murder when the JP Scroll Glitch was removed in FFT, people had a bit of a huffy when swift-swimming was removed in Wind Waker, etc. Heck, there were people complaining about not being able to have the NPC that literally causes arbitrary code execution to happen just by talking to him in Pokemon Red/Blue (Missingno wasn't the thing that caused your cartridges to eventually stop working, it was talking to the old man in the first place... yes, literally talking to an obvious tutorial NPC literally rendered your game unusable after a while).

We can say with no uncertainty that glitches back then were enshrined.

ellis123 posted...

I mean, why view it as a theoretical when we already know what happens? People cried bloody murder when the JP Scroll Glitch was removed in FFT, people had a bit of a huffy when swift-swimming was removed in Wind Waker, etc. Heck, there were people complaining about not being able to have the NPC that literally causes arbitrary code execution to happen just by talking to him in Pokemon Red/Blue (Missingno wasn't the thing that caused your cartridges to eventually stop working, it was talking to the old man in the first place... yes, literally talking to an obvious tutorial NPC literally rendered your game unusable after a while).

We can say with no uncertainty that glitches back then were enshrined.

So who was making a fuss, the "Speed Runners"?

Or the general gaming populace?

Foppe posted...

They released new revisions of games all the time back then.

This is what I pretty much keep saying whenever DLC or some sort of expansion is announced and someone starts ranting and raving about the game not being "complete" and how it's content that the developers intentionally left out to sell for more money. It doesn't even matter to them if it was content that the developers didn't start working on until after launch. The idea that it was content that normally just would not be in the game if DLC didn't exist isn't feasible to them.

That illusion of old games being complete still goes strong, but back then they just cut anything that didn't meet the budget/deadline.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

I guess that's what we had at the time, so we dealt with it.

That's the point though. People kinda ignore the environment and our experience around the games when talking about it back then.

Like I used to go every weekend and rent a game knowing next to nothing about it back in 2002. At most maybe I read a review. It was great! I have a lot of fond memories of it. But I have no desire to do that today. I don't need to rent games anymore. What I spent on renting I can buy entire games for now. I own more games than I could have imagined as a kid. Game Pass is also a lot cheaper than renting was and can often be a similar sort of feeling.

I feel like there are thing about then that are better (and a lot of that is due to the circumstances around gaming) but there's also a lot of things about today that are better too. At the end of the day I don't spend most of my time playing games from the early 2000s. If they were all actually better I would. I play the odd one now and again and that's still probably more than most. I absolutely adore the original Splinter Cell but most people can't handle that game anymore and a similar game to it released today would be torn to shreds.

Evening_Dragon posted...

That illusion of old games being complete still goes strong, but back then they just cut anything that didn't meet the budget/deadline.

Like people remember that Metal Gear Solid would release a proper definitive version a year or so after release right?

Evening_Dragon posted...

That illusion of old games being complete still goes strong, but back then they just cut anything that didn't meet the budget/deadline.

Exactly. Sometimes the developers had plans for a game, but weren't able to fulfill them because of time restraints. So if a sequel was made, they'd use them there instead. For instance, the first three stages of Banjo-Tooie, they were planned to be in the first game. There's also a world that's half lava and half ice. The lava part was also planned to be in Banjo-Kazooie.

Punished_Blinx posted...

That's the point though. People kinda ignore the environment and our experience around the games when talking about it back then.

Like I used to go every weekend and rent a game knowing next to nothing about it back in 2002. At most maybe I read a review. It was great! I have a lot of fond memories of it. But I have no desire to do that today. I don't need to rent games anymore. What I spent on renting I can buy entire games for now. I own more games than I could have imagined as a kid. Game Pass is also a lot cheaper than renting was and can often be a similar sort of feeling.

I feel like there are thing about then that are better (and a lot of that is due to the circumstances around gaming) but there's also a lot of things about today that are better too. At the end of the day I don't spend most of my time playing games from the early 2000s. If they were all actually better I would. I play the odd one now and again and that's still probably more than most. I absolutely adore the original Splinter Cell but most people can't handle that game anymore and a similar game to it released today would be torn to shreds.

Game Pass = Renting, you don't own anything at the end of the day.
The only difference is that it's a "All You Can Eat" type Game Rental.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

Game Pass = Renting, you don't own anything at the end of the day.
The only difference is that it's a "All You Can Eat" type Game Rental.

I know...that's why I brought it up and compared it.

Foppe posted...

I bet you never got the Kill Screen in Donkey Kong, but you cant deny that it exist.
https://youtu.be/E1k_h1_gnFY

Nobody plays Donkey Kong for 4+ hours straight. If someone is, that's a problem for them.

Punished_Blinx posted...

That's the point. You didn't have YouTube videos and Twitter clips showing you day one how broken a game can be. Spider-man was listed before and people had fun but what if this was spread around when it came out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xRTFtw7qWk

the point is back in the day you could buy a game and expect to play it to completion and have a relatively bug free experience. These days shit like Skyrim is common and even defended and theres people trying to gaslight us by saying most older games were just as bad when really the ones that were that bad were extremely rare

Kloe_Rinz posted...

the point is back in the day you could buy a game and expect to play it to completion and have a relatively bug free experience. These days shit like Skyrim is common and even defended and theres people trying to gaslight us by saying most older games were just as bad when really the ones that were that bad were extremely rare

Morrowind came out in 2002 and most certainly was not a bug free experience either.

Now if your answer is that it's an exception why would you think that game was one? Was it perhaps because there weren't that many open world RPG's compared to now?

Although tbh I'm not really sure what bug filled games people are playing these days either. Your example is from 11 years ago and is part of a series of games that have historically been buggy.

Tom_Joad posted...

Nobody plays Donkey Kong for 4+ hours straight. If someone is, that's a problem for them.

Back then, you kept playing the game you rented over the weekend, no matter if it was good or bad.
But hey, if you cant stay alive for 4 hours in Donkey Kong, then you probably cant get the killscreen in Duck Hunt as well.
https://youtu.be/tQ168Wsui_U

Punished_Blinx posted...

Morrowind came out in 2002 and most certainly was not a bug free experience either.

Now if your answer is that it's an exception why would you think that game was one? Was it perhaps because there weren't that many open world RPG's compared to now?

Although tbh I'm not really sure what bug filled games people are playing these days either. Your example is from 11 years ago and is part of a series of games that have historically been buggy.

there was one notable game released this week which is a shitty bugfest. You might have already forgot about cyberpunk as well but I didnt

Sega still made video games, so yes.

are the ppl saying 2002 only paying attention to AAA and console bullshit? the answer is 2022 by a fuckin mile. so many baller indie titles its impossible to keep up with em all.

PS2/Gamecube era remains my favorite era of gaming.

Kloe_Rinz posted...

there was one notable game released this week which is a shitty bugfest. You might have already forgot about cyberpunk as well but I didnt

There's always been crappy bugfest games.

2000-2003 had;
The Simpsons Wrestling (which I was given as a present!)
Batman: Dark Tomorrow
State of Emergency
Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness
Drake of the 99 Dragons
Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing

Some of those games are barely even playable period and never were.

It was for me during the console and PC gaming era

Punished_Blinx posted...

The Simpsons Wrestling

Hey, it was crappy but I wouldnt call it a bugfest.