Current Events > Sweden and Finland agree to apply for NATO membership at the same time.

(+) Yeah! (+)

MrKapowski posted...

What part of that statement embraces any Russian action whatsoever?

scar the 1 posted...

What part of that statement embraces any Russian action whatsoever?

You can stop. You already gave yourself away. We all saw it.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

You can stop. You already gave yourself away. We all saw it.

What because I don't like the US?

scar the 1 posted...

What because I don't like the US?

"The most criminal nation in the world" is literally Russia.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

"The most criminal nation in the world" is literally Russia.

I disagree, but they're pretty bad.

scar the 1 posted...

I disagree, but they're pretty bad.

So who would you say is the most criminal nation in the world?

Thompson posted...

While that does look like a plausible assessment that I'm unfortunately unable to verify as being true, it nonetheless presents a picture of a series of attacks on or past the borders, with the primary and most consolidated thrust being on breaking through the defenses on the Karelian Ishtmus. However, the Soviet 163rd Rifle Division was specifically tasked with advancing into Oulu, a city on the Finnish west coast, essentially cutting Finland in half; this attempt was decisively thwarted in what came to be known as the Battle of Suomussalmi.

Reason being that breaking through The Mannerheim line in the Isthmus would open the way into Finland proper. Beyond that ways to contain a Russian breakthrough were essentially negligible, since the Isthmus was the best defensive terrain available to the Finns. After the early fighting on the wider front it was realized by the Russians after about three weeks "we aren't very good at this and need to concentrate our power and focus". So they scaled back the other larger operations, but kept them big enough that the Finns would still have to oppose them, and then spent time building up forces in the isthmus, unleashing them once they had an absolutely overwhelming advantage is size and operational strength.

I'm not arguing that the Russians wouldn't have taken all of Finland had Finnish resistance not kicked the dick harder than they could have imagined. 163rd was a single division though, it was thrown in that direction as a "well, if this works we'll really have fucked them for a minimal cost. If it doesn't, well it's only a single infantry division of which we have 100s".

In war you always have a goal in mind that you would like to have, and then the one you know you can reasonably achieve. Sometimes you get the first, sometimes you can't even get the latter.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

So who would you say is the most criminal nation in the world?

Well the implication in my post was the US. But of course, it's not a statement I've any sort of concrete numbers for.

scar the 1 posted...

Well the implication in my post was the US. But of course, it's not a statement I've any sort of concrete numbers for.

So basically you're saying tankie shit

Gobstoppers12 posted...

So basically you're saying tankie shit

Lol

I don't think "the US has committed significant crimes at an international level, perhaps more so than any other country" and "modern-day China and similar regimes can do nothing wrong" are one and the same statement. You can criticise the US and not be pro-China

teep_ posted...

I don't think "the US has committed significant crimes at an international level, perhaps more so than any other country" and "modern-day China and similar regimes can do nothing wrong" are one and the same statement

I don't think his definition of tankie stretches past the first statement

scar the 1 posted...

Lol

You:

"Russia isn't that bad. It's perfectly reasonable for them to want to invade a neighboring country, lie to the entire world about it, arrest any civilian who has an opinion against it, literally level multiple major cities with no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties, and create mass graves filled with their own victims on enemy soil. Oh, and they also constantly undermine the safety of the entire planet with constant direct threats of nuclear war and further invasions."

Also you:

"The US is the most criminal nation in the world."

Russia: "Ukraine is genociding Russians, Ukraine is all Nazis, Ukrainians don't have their own culture, Ukraine is actually Russia and doesn't have a right to exist, it's Lenin's mistake that they're even a country"

THiS is nAto'S FAulT

Gobstoppers12 posted...

You:

"Russia isn't that bad.

Nope

teep_ posted...

You can criticise the US and not be pro-China

He's claiming the US is the most criminal nation on the planet and is passionately at bat trying to cover for Russia's 100% illegal, unprovoked, and incredibly destructive invasion of Ukraine.

scar the 1 posted...

Nope

Do you admit that it's absolutely unconscionable and unjustifiable for Russia to have invaded Ukraine?

Do you further acknowledge that Russia has absolutely no right whatsoever to attempt to control whether other sovereign nations do or do not join NATO?

I will say though scar, it feels like you're giving Joel too much credit here. Yes, the US was expanding its influence which worried Russia, but invading other countries (as opposed to entering military pacts, one sided though they may be) is not a justifiable response imo

(Let me know if I'm understanding you wrong, I've been fasting all day lol)

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Do you admit that it's absolutely unconscionable and unjustifiable for Russia to have invaded Ukraine?

Yes.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Do you further acknowledge that Russia has absolutely no right whatsoever to attempt to control whether other sovereign nations do or do not join NATO?

Yes.

scar the 1 posted...

Yes.

Yes.

Then you must acknowledge that Russia is many times more dangerous to the safety of the world than the United States.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Then you must acknowledge that Russia is many times more dangerous to the safety of the world than the United States.

Only as of the Ukraine conflict (by your logic)

Fwiw I wouldn't necessarily agree that the US is the most criminal nation, but I can definitely see the case that could be made

The Iraq war was 100% illegal

teep_ posted...

I will say though scar, it feels like you're giving Joel too much credit here. Yes, the US was expanding its influence which worried Russia, but invading other countries (as opposed to entering military pacts, one sided though they may be) is not a justifiable response imo

(Let me know if I'm understanding you wrong, I've been fasting all day lol)

I don't think it is, and I don't think Joel was saying that it was either. I think what happened is as soon as he even tried to say that Putin feels justifiably threatened, people like Gobstoppers above equated that to him saying that Russia's actions were justified. That's something different. But Gob here demonstrated very clearly how he'll absolutely fabricate statements out of thin air if you happen to insinuate that the US is not so good

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Then you must acknowledge that Russia is many times more dangerous to the safety of the world than the United States.

No, I must not.

scar the 1 posted...

No, I must not.

Then my opinion of you is unchanged and you have been tagged appropriately.

scar the 1 posted...

Putin feels justifiably threatened

Putin is the one who makes threats and turns his neighbors into parking lots on the regular. He has no right claiming to feel threatened.

scar the 1 posted...

he'll absolutely fabricate statements out of thin air

Which?

scar the 1 posted...

I think what happened is as soon as he even tried to say that Putin feels justifiably threatened, people like Gobstoppers above equated that to him saying that Russia's actions were justified. That's something different.

OK, that makes sense. Though given Joel's previous statements and general politics, I'm loath to give him the benefit of the doubt

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Putin is the one who makes threats and turns his neighbors into parking lots on the regular. He has no right claiming to feel threatened.

Yeah he does. I don't really care if he has the "right" to feel threatened, because it's really besides the point. Whether or not he has, he would be justified in feeling threatened. But he would not be justified in invading other countries, or in any other way strong-arming sovereign nations out of joining whatever military alliance they want to join.

Im starting to think that Joel is just a big fan of dictators

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Check the topic title mate

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The topic is about Sweden and Finland joining NATO, a military alliance in which the US is the biggest member. Criticism of NATO members surely isn't off-topic in a discussion about NATO membership? In case you hadn't noticed, the quote Gob kept on about where I called the US the most criminal country in the world, it was literally about why I don't want my country (Sweden) to join NATO.

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The American (and Turkish) war crimes I've brought up are reasons why I don't want my country to join NATO. Not excuses for Russian aggression.

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Sadly, that's likely true.

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I don't think Russia is a threat to us, and the reason I don't want to join NATO isn't because they'd be a threat.

The thing about Duncan is that he wished he was on Putins payroll

Why are some of you acting like Russia is some kind of machine that must react and do horrible things without any agency of their own?

The war in Ukraine is 100% their fault. They're the ones invading. Nobody forced them to. Just like the US invasion of Iraq is 100% the US' fault

Yall wilding out here

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Sure

scar the 1 posted...

I don't think Russia is a threat to us

Russia has literally made threats against Sweden like....... recently.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Russia has literally made threats against Sweden like....... recently.

I'm aware.

scar the 1 posted...

I'm aware.

But you don't think they're a threat? Even though they have also recently invaded another European nation on a whim and killed thousands while displacing millions and causing tens of millions in property damage?

What exactly would make them a threat to you, in your eyes?

We need to bring the war to Russia, stop the war at its origins