Current Events > Elden Ring's exploration is by far the worst out of all Soulsborne

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gwynevere posted...

Is this really true though? Two of the bell bearings you need to buy stones are in caves that are marked with big black dots with orange circles around them. Those are all mines where you can find stones. They're attention grabbing on the map, and once someone finds stones in them it says to the player "hey go into these when you need an upgrade"

The third one is on the path you take to progress, and the last one is literally just dropped by a non optional boss. Trying to make this an objective criticism doesn't really work

I didn't even bring up the bell bearings, but I will say I explored at least a few of those "big black dots" and never found one in them, so I'm not seeing how they're supposed to be uniquely indicative. Having looked the bell bearings up since this discussion, there are at least a dozen, fyi.

Either way, this is off-topic from the initial complaint.

OudeGeuze posted...

Because it's not a valid complaint

It objectively is. Sorry if you don't like facts.

TheOtherMike posted...

It objectively is. Sorry if you don't like facts.

*Subjectively

the overworld exploration is top notch and theres still a sense of exploration and wonder 80 hours in

the catacombs/mines/caves are repetitive though in layout but whats the alternative? not enough to do!?

Layout aside, the mini-dungeons still dont fail to surprise. Sometimes I find one with an NPC, or more than one separate boss, or sometimes they actually have unique and totally distinct designs. Id say for every 3 cookie cut, I get a special design.

DespondentDeity posted...

Game is awful cuz theres so damn much content and I cant stop playing, its embarrassing and Im not getting enough sleep.

Honestly this.

TC knows better than most reviewers.

Has anyone told TC to shut the fuck up yet? If so, mods you can close this.

TheOtherMike posted...

I didn't even bring up the bell bearings, but I will say I explored at least a few of those "big black dots" and never found one in them, so I'm not seeing how they're supposed to be uniquely indicative. Having looked the bell bearings up since this discussion, there are at least a dozen, fyi.

Either way, this is off-topic from the initial complaint.

The bell bearings are very relevant to the discussion. You said there wasn't enough upgrade materials to let you try every weapon. The bell bearings give you unlimited upgrade materials. You find them in mines that you should be going into anyway if you need upgrade materials. I'm failing to see the issue with this, unless you think they should just be dropped by main bosses? Which would be a valid opinion but far from objective

Gwynevere posted...

You find them in mines that you should be going into anyway if you need upgrade materials.

TheOtherMike posted...

I explored at least a few of those "big black dots" and never found one in them, so I'm not seeing how they're supposed to be uniquely indicative.

Regardless, I will admit that their existence at least partly alleviates the complaint, but the fact that they're as hidden as they are and there are at least a dozen is still a valid criticism. Something as critical as the ability to upgrade more than one or two weapons, especially when the game gives so many weapons of each type and upgrading is the only way to make them useful, shouldn't be gated behind hidden rewards. That is objectively bad design.

TheOtherMike posted...

there are at least a dozen

there are 9 my guy. 4 for regular, 5 for somber. you can dig this headass argument deeper, but i wouldnt recommend it

TheOtherMike posted...

Regardless, I will admit that their existence at least partly alleviates the complaint, but the fact that they're as hidden as they are and there are at least a dozen is still a valid criticism. Something as critical as the ability to upgrade more than one or two weapons, especially when the game gives so many weapons of each type and upgrading is the only way to make them useful, shouldn't be gated behind hidden rewards. That is objectively bad design.

You really need to compartmentalize "a valid criticism" and "objectively bad design".

Did you have this problem with Titanite?

Also I'm not this deep in the meta, but I've heard Ashes of War and Skills can compensate for a need to upgrade weapons up to the max, but I think someone better versed in this than I can speak to it more effectively. So upgrading may not be as "critical" as you're promoting.

CyricZ posted...

You really need to compartmentalize "a valid criticism" and "objectively bad design".

Pointing out objectively bad design is valid criticism. That doesn't mean every valid criticism stems from objectively bad design.

TheOtherMike posted...

Pointing out objectively bad design is valid criticism. That doesn't mean every valid criticism stems from objectively bad design.

Oh shit I've been Venn'd.

Fair enough.

It's just pretty obvious that you keep calling it "bad game design" out of some desire to be "right" or to have your criticism carry more weight.

This stuff isn't "hidden" any more or less than anything else in this game. 80% of stuff in the game is "hidden", by your standards.

idk, "i don't want to go exploring for the item i want, but i also dont want to look up what i missed" seems like more a bad attitude than bad design tbh

Bads mad because bad.

CyricZ posted...

It's just pretty obvious that you keep calling it "bad game design" out of some desire to be "right" or to have your criticism carry more weight.

Or I'm calling it bad design because it's bad design.

CyricZ posted...

This stuff isn't "hidden" any more or less than anything else in this game. 80% of stuff in the game is "hidden", by your standards.

80% of stuff in the game isn't critical to being able to use the variety of weapons you find. That's literally the entire point and you're deliberately ignoring it.

Well all I know is that bouncing between two weapons I had more than enough regular Smithing at the halfway point (maybe? I'm hoping I'm halfway?) to upgrade both of them to the teens. Got most of the material from mines, which are marked on the map.

If you're complaining that it's not happening fast enough for you, or that you feel you have to fully upgrade six different weapons, then I don't know what to tell you.

Except it's not objective bad game design and you're starting to sound a little tantrumy.

It's just not.

You don't like it and that's fine, but the game presents you with the means and the opportunity. Your only inhibitor is your own impatience.

CyricZ posted...

Well all I know is that bouncing between two weapons I had more than enough regular Smithing at the halfway point (maybe? I'm hoping I'm halfway?) to upgrade both of them to the teens.

Right. Exactly. You had enough to upgrade those two weapons. And what have I been saying all this time? That you only have enough materials to upgrade one or two weapons throughout the game. That this disallows using new weapons as you find them because they will be inferior to the weapons you've already been upgrading. Thank you for proving my point.

CyricZ posted...

Except it's not objective bad game design

You can deny it all you want, but gating something as critical as weapon upgrades behind hidden bell bearings is objectively bad design.

CyricZ posted...

you're starting to sound a little tantrumy.

Don't confuse my frustration with your and everyone else's inability (deliberate or otherwise) to actually comprehend what I've been saying and respond accordingly with "tantruming." If you actually engaged with what I said instead of whatever you misunderstood, I wouldn't need to repeat myself.

This guy is still crying?

The upgrade system really could have been streamlined, like upgrading the smith himself and then you can just spend runes to get weapons to whatever + level he is and forget about boring material farming

TheOtherMike posted...

Right. Exactly. You had enough to upgrade those two weapons. And what have I been saying all this time? That you only have enough materials to upgrade one or two weapons throughout the game. That this disallows using new weapons as you find them because they will be inferior to the weapons you've already been upgrading. Thank you for proving my point.

You can deny it all you want, but gating something as critical as weapon upgrades behind hidden bell bearings is objectively bad design.

Don't confuse my frustration with your and everyone else's inability (deliberate or otherwise) to actually comprehend what I've been saying and respond accordingly with "tantruming." If you actually engaged with what I said instead of whatever you misunderstood, I wouldn't need to repeat myself.

This isn't even that much of a complaint. It's mostly that it completely sucks the fun out of finding new gear since, unless you've found all the necessary bell bearings, that gear is just going straight into the chest. It's just bizarre that you guys latched onto this one issue and kept hounding on it. But it's absolutely a valid criticism because it defeats the purpose of even having the variety of weapons that the game does.

*Subjective

MarthGoomba posted...

The upgrade system really could have been streamlined, like upgrading the smith himself and then you can just spend runes to get weapons to whatever + level he is and forget about boring material farming

but you do this exact thing with bell bearings at the maiden husks, like weve been saying for 50 fuckin posts

Oubliettes posted...

but you do this exact thing with bell bearings at the maiden husks, like weve been saying for 50 fuckin posts

That's not the same, and it's not the best way, because you can only buy up to a few tiers lower than what your main weapon is going to be at

Like on my second character right now, I can buy up to Smithing Stone 4, but have used much higher tiers on my main weapon. The next bell is much later in the game so I can't get alternative weapons up to what my main is at

What I proposed kills the need for farming materials altogether and lets you upgrade everything to the highest tier you can. The bells are always outdated in what they provide.

MarthGoomba posted...

That's not the same, and it's not the best way, because you can only buy up to a few tiers lower than what your main weapon is going to be at

Like on my second character right now, I can buy up to Smithing Stone 4, but have used much higher tiers on my main weapon. The next bell is much later in the game so I can't get alternative weapons up to what my main is at

What I proposed kills the need for farming materials altogether and lets you upgrade everything to the highest tier you can. The bells are always outdated in what they provide.

please, continue to elaborate upon how you don't understand how the game works at all

Kaldrenthebold posted...

*Subjective

*Objective

Oubliettes posted...

please, continue to elaborate upon how you don't understand how the game works at all

I understand how the game works just fine

The current system doesn't work well for experimentation because any alternative weapon you upgrade will always be vastly inferior to your main, even with bells. Streamlining the process would only be beneficial as you could fully upgrade everything to the highest tier you're at.

Is there something you don't understand about what I'm saying?

MarthGoomba posted...

I understand how the game works just fine

The current system doesn't work well for experimentation because any alternative weapon you upgrade will always be vastly inferior to your main, even with bells. Streamlining the process would only be beneficial as you could fully upgrade everything to the highest tier you're at.

Is there something you don't understand about what I'm saying?

the only tier you can't infinitely buy is the final one (25/10), and the final tier is not "vastly superior". There are like 13 ancient dragons and 7 somber ancient dragons. You're for real going to max upgrade 20 weapons before going to NG+ and complain about your lack of options?

Oubliettes posted...

the only tier you can't infinitely buy is the final one (25/10), and the final tier is not "vastly superior". There are like 13 ancient dragons and 7 somber ancient dragons. You're for real going to max upgrade 20 weapons before going to NG+ and complain about your lack of options?

I'm going to need you to re-read my posts because you very clearly didn't understand any of them. You're going off on a completely different thing now.

The end-game, when you have access to everything, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the very simple proposal that I made

MarthGoomba posted...

I'm going to need you to re-read my posts because you very clearly didn't understand any of them.

Why is everyone itt doing that with any criticism of this game? They respond as if we said something entirely different from what we actually said. It's weird.

Because both of you are objectively wrong

TheOtherMike posted...

*Objective

What a hill to die on.

OudeGeuze posted...

Because both of you are objectively wrong

Easy to say when people can only respond with strawmen.

CyricZ posted...

What a hill to die on.

Thanks again for proving my point in your last post. Great rebuttal here.

The classic Octillery approach of claiming something is objective when everyone tells you it's not. Pretty much going into troll territory at that point

MarthGoomba posted...

The upgrade system really could have been streamlined, like upgrading the smith himself and then you can just spend runes to get weapons to whatever + level he is and forget about boring material farming

This has potential though

At least make the upgrade materials purchaseable at the smith instead of having to run back and forth between the two sides of the roundtable hold

Gwynevere posted...

The classic Octillery approach of claiming something is objective when everyone tells you it's not. Pretty much going into troll territory at that point

This has potential though

At least make the upgrade materials purchaseable at the smith instead of having to run back and forth between the two sides of the roundtable hold

There's a 2nd smith you find and he sells mats and is right next to a grace. I believe he sells some low-level mats. It's a souls game there's always a 2nd smith.

and I would assume the reason you just can't use souls to upgrade the smith himself is that in like two steps you can have like 70k runes in like 30 mins of the start. So they don't want people cheesing the game more than you can already cheese the game.

Gwynevere posted...

The classic Octillery approach of claiming something is objective when everyone tells you it's not.

Except no one can explain how it's not, while I have explained how it is. Repeatedly. Care to take a stab at either defending the mechanic or explaining how I'm wrong?

Also, not Octillery.

I4NRulez posted...

There's a 2nd smith you find and he sells mats and is right next to a grace. I believe he sells some low-level mats. It's a souls game there's always a 2nd smith.

and I would assume the reason you just can't use souls to upgrade the smith himself is that in like two steps you can have like 70k runes in like 30 mins of the start. So they don't want people cheesing the game more than you can already cheese the game.

Iji sells unlimited somber smithing stone 1 and 2, and a limited number of regular smithing stone 3 and 4 I believe

I wouldn't be down for straight upgrading the smith and doing away with upgrade materials altogether, because going into dangerous places for materials is a really fun way to get strong weapons before you should have them. I'd just prefer the smith himself sold them when you can buy them rather than the maidens

TheOtherMike posted...

Except no one can explain how it's not, while I have explained how it is. Repeatedly. Care to take a stab at either defending the mechanic or explaining how I'm wrong?

Also, not Octillery.

Everyone else has explained how it's not. You're in a minority of people that have an issue with this, since the game literally does everything to guide you to these materials and bell bearings just short of handing them to you. Your refusal to work with the systems the game has in place that people have enjoyed for a decade does not make it bad game design, it makes it a system that you personally don't like. This is extremely basic stuff to understand, and if you can't make the distinction then you don't need to be having these discussions

TheOtherMike posted...

Except no one can explain how it's not

Do you have peer review?

Anyone to corroborate this?

TheOtherMike posted...

Except no one can explain how it's not, while I have explained how it is. Repeatedly. Care to take a stab at either defending the mechanic or explaining how I'm wrong?

Also, not Octillery.

K.

ER is definitely overhyped all around. The overworld is very beautiful, except for the obvious same (and always weirdly out of place) semi-curved ruins wall copied every twenty yards and literally identical shacks scattered everywhere. But the dungeons are way too samey, and 95% of the time don't reward you with anything useful. There aren't enough smithing stones to meaningfully upgrade more than one or two weapons, making newly picked up weapons weaker than the one you've been upgrading since early game.

Objectively wrong (see, that's the correct usage!).

Just cause you haven't paid attention to how the game is set up does not mean it is bad design. Let me guess, you also didn't realize you could see the map pickups already on the map? Or how towers give you memory stones? Or crypts contain summons? You needed to read up on that, too? Or did your brain "click" and you understood a new mechanic? At that point it was on you if you wanted to continue doing them or ignore them for greener pastures.

If you think the level design is too samey or the rewards are not meaningful (lord I really hope you hate Breath of the Wild), cool, subjective opinions I can't refute. But your obsession with upgrade mats and where they are located / their limited number is pretty poor. The game expects you to think and remember. If you don't want to, then the game will just be an obtuse mess where you are hooked on the Wiki.

Gwynevere posted...

Everyone else has explained how it's not.

No. Literally no one has been able to explain how:

TheOtherMike posted...

That you only have enough materials to upgrade one or two weapons throughout the game. That this disallows using new weapons as you find them because they will be inferior to the weapons you've already been upgrading.

Is wrong. Hell, this is quoted from a reply to Cyric where he outright stated that he had enough mats to keep his two preferred weapons upgraded.

So again, the claims are:

1. There aren't enough mats to upgrade more than one or two weapons.
2. This forces players to stick with their one or two upgraded weapons rather than using new weapons they find throughout the game, because they're inferior to the upgraded weapons.
3. This defeats the purpose of even having the wide variety of interesting weapons the game does.

No one has even tried to dispute these facts. Cyric literally agreed with them, but thought he was providing a counterpoint.

An upgrade system that discourages using new weapons in favor of old but upgraded weapons is objectively bad. No one has even tried to explain how an upgrade system that discourages using new weapons in favor of old weapons is a good system, because that's absurd on its face. I've even seen people in other discussions of the game acknowledge this, and say "yeah it sucks, but that's how Souls games are - use the same weapon for 90% of the game."

Gwynevere posted...

since the game literally does everything to guide you to these materials and bell bearings just short of handing them to you

Yes, the game provides you with enough materials to keep a few weapons upgraded. Quote where I said otherwise. As for the bell bearings, you're just flat wrong. They're hidden in caves. There's dozens of caves. There's at least a dozen bell bearings. And as Marth pointed out, you get corresponding bell bearings late enough that you still can't bring new weapons up to snuff compared to your main weapon. Like, during this discussion I went to Raya Crystal Tunnel and got the bell bearing there. Horray, now I can upgrade any new armaments to +6. Meanwhile, my current weapon is +15.

You literally aren't even understanding the argument. Exactly as I said before.

Kaldrenthebold posted...

Objectively wrong

No, it's objectively right. Explain how it isn't.

there are 9 bell bearings, not "at least a dozen"
4 regular 5 somber
the two caves for the regular ones are marked clearly on the map as points of interest, and of the other two, only the third is a bit tricky, the fourth is unmissable

does this dude have me on ignore because of our last "objectively correct" argument? lmao

TheOtherMike posted...

Is wrong. Hell, this is quoted from a reply to Cyric where he outright stated that he had enough mats to keep his two preferred weapons upgraded.

My greater point was that my two weapons were enough to get me through a considerable part of the game. I didn't need eight different weapons. Even then I know it's anecdotal.

But honestly that might be starving DEX-me talking.

EDIT: Also I said I had "more than enough". I've put a bit into my bow as well and still have a fair few left over.

Your argument was "no more than one or two" while my situation was "two comfortably with leftovers". A small distinction, but you had no problem twisting it to suit your argument.

I barely bought any mats and i can list off the items i've plus 10'd

Moon Greatsword
Moonviel
Uchikatana
Wings of Asteel
Sword of Night and Flame
Azurs staff
Erdtree Seal
Broadsword.

i did that by just doing a couple of runs through the mines to farm mats. I honestly dont know what he wants lol. To upgrade every weapon he finds?

Has anyone pointed out that the game was patched last week to significantly increase the level of weapon upgrades you pick up from enemies.

CyricZ posted...

My greater point was that my two weapons were enough to get me through a considerable part of the game.

I get that, and I was never disputing that upgraded early-game weapons can carry you through. The entire point is and always has been that this mechanic discourages using new weapons. Like, why are you people so deliberately ignoring the point over and over?

CyricZ posted...

I didn't need eight different weapons.

So what, exactly, is the point of the game having dozens or (possibly, idk) hundreds? Why create interesting weapons to populate mid and late game with if the player won't be able to upgrade them to be useful and play with?

TheOtherMike posted...

Why create interesting weapons to populate mid and late game with if the player won't be able to upgrade them to be useful and play with?

This is where you're missing people.

You can upgrade them to be useful if you want. Are you saying that they shouldn't need to make an effort to upgrade late weapons? But then that would render early weapons useless for the late game no?

CyricZ posted...

Your argument was "no more than one or two" while my situation was "two comfortably with leftovers". A small distinction, but you had no problem twisting it to suit your argument.

"Twisting" wasn't my intention, and frankly the point stands if there's enough mats for one or ten. As long as the mechanic encourages using your already-upgraded weapon(s) over trying and experimenting with new ones, it's a bad system. Because the end result is the same: "Hey, I just got this badass-looking new swort with a neat effect, but its attack power is 50+ points below my main weapon(s) so into the chest it goes!"

Punished_Blinx posted...

You can upgrade them to be useful if you want. Are you saying that they shouldn't need to make an effort to upgrade late weapons? But then that would render early weapons useless for the late game no?

He's trying to upgrade every weapon he finds but that doesnt make sense. There's a ton of weapons because there's a ton of build options. You shouldnt upgrade dex weapons if you're going pure strength etc etc.

TheOtherMike posted...

So what, exactly, is the point of the game having dozens or (possibly, idk) hundreds? Why create interesting weapons to populate mid and late game with if the player won't be able to upgrade them to be useful and play with?

TheOtherMike posted...

"Twisting" wasn't my intention, and frankly the point stands if there's enough mats for one or ten. As long as the mechanic encourages using your already-upgraded weapon(s) over trying and experimenting with new ones, it's a bad system. Because the end result is the same: "Hey, I just got this badass-looking new swort with a neat effect, but its attack power is 50+ points below my main weapon(s) so into the chest it goes!"

But if you make the effort to upgrade that weapon to also have 50+ points then you'd have a better weapon due to the neat effect?

TheOtherMike posted...

So what, exactly, is the point of the game having dozens or (possibly, idk) hundreds? Why create interesting weapons to populate mid and late game with if the player won't be able to upgrade them to be useful and play with?

Next Souls game please have only four weapons.

Punished_Blinx posted...

You can upgrade them to be useful if you want.

Not as useful as your main, not unless you're farming mats, and certainly not all of them. Weapon finds should be progressive improvements, either without or despite the upgrade system.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Are you saying that they shouldn't need to make an effort to upgrade late weapons? But then that would render early weapons useless for the late game no?

...yes, early game weapons should absolutely be outclassed by late game weapons. I don't particularly care about whether it takes "effort" to upgrade weapons (late or early), all I'm saying is there's no incentive to swap weapons out, upgrade some new find in favor of the old already-upgraded weapon, or even try out a new weapon for a while. I can't comment on a system that doesn't exist in the game, I'm just pointing out that the one that does exist is seriously flawed.