Current Events > I do not see how a Metroidvania game could be good

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've beaten Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, SotN, and Harmony of Despair. I liked the Metroid games because the maps were small and short and sweet and I didn't play many of them, but I don't think I'll play another one (unless MP4 does some crazy shit). HoD was awesome because it was fast paced and coop, every level was meant to be played in a half hour time attack thing instead of hours of slog. I hated SotN, thank god that OP magic shield thing exists so that I could just breeze through it. I've tried Dawn of Sorrow, Ori, Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, and some others.

I think the inherent game loop is trash. It feels like Gatekeeping: The Game. Or maybe I'm a rat in a lab maze trying to find cheese. Maybe if I was constantly discovering new areas it'd be fun. But you are basically forced to run back and forth through the same place over and over. You're at a fork with A,B,C,D. Try A, you need ability 1, go try B, B has E, F, G, try F, you need ability 2, go back and try E and G, E needs ability 1, G you can proceed but you need ability 3, which you have to go back through C which has path H, I , J, etc. It's maddening. It is NOT exploration. It's a gameplay loop to make you think there's more game than there is by purposely obfuscating where you should go next.

That moment in linear games where you're like "hmm Idk where to go, I think this is the main path but I dont wanna miss out on bonuses in that bonus path", that slight tinge of fomo/anxiety/etc, this is literally an entire game built around that. Maybe if you could choose a path and just keep riding whatever path you picked till the end of the game, that'd be cool. But eventually you are either going to get roadblocked or not. Your reward for going down the 'wrong' path is that you wasted time now instead of wasting time later.

There are games that have exploration, generally they are open, meaning you can go basically anywhere you want when you want. When you go to a theme park or something, it's not like you have to ride the ferris wheel in order to ride the carousel, and then the carousel lets you ride a mystery ride that you have to test every ride to see which one lets you on. You just go where you want or even where you don't want.

The enemies are bland because they have to be made to deal with you coming from any direction at any point/power level in the game, and they all respawn, so even if there is any interesting aspect to them, it will eventually numb down from sheer repetition.

And the end-game gatekeeping they place in the earlier sections is annoying. Yes I get it, I will be able to do some super jump flight etc thing later and it's gonna be badass, but why show me that when it's so far away?

I've heard Shadow Complex is decent so it might be my last shot at giving this stupid genre a chance, but they just seem like an outdated method to stretch a game out, made into an entire genre.

Blasphemous baby <3

Sooooo good

Seems fair

I don't agree with any of this. But ultimately, it just isn't a genre for everyone. Same thing applies to all game genres.

didnt read lol

metroidvania is like the purest distillation of gaming imo

i feel like dread would be a game you'd like, because there really wasn't much backtracking needed to advance the game

TheGoldenEel posted...

didnt read lol

metroidvania is like the purest distillation of gaming imo

Nonsensical buzzword

I think there's just some game types that some people enjoy that others don't.

One of my favorite games is The Binding of Isaac and I have tried to get a few friends into it. Some like it and some come back with "Wait, that 30 minute run was for nothing?" and they feel they about wasted time and no progression. I get their point.

I dont like racing games. Turn a little. Turn a little. Turn a lot.

WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...

I think there's just some game types that some people enjoy that others don't.

One of my favorite games is The Binding of Isaac and I have tried to get a few friends into it. Some like it and some come back with "Wait, that 30 minute run was for nothing?" and they feel they about wasted time and no progression. I get their point.

yeah some genres are just innately more polarizing than others.

krazychao5 posted...

i feel like dread would be a game you'd like, because there really wasn't much backtracking needed to advance the game

the maps in dread make me feel like it's a nightmare to explore but really I never got lost because it always spits you out very close to the next area you can unlock with your newest power.

And metroid fusion is a pretty linear metroidvania game. the extra cool part of it is that it does such a good job weaving a story with great atmosphere. although I still don't think TC would like it

It's not for everyone. I love Metroid games, but I was definitely put off for a while on how many indie games went with the Metroidvania style gameplay.

Plenty of other genres out there to enjoy though.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

maybe i woul'dve liked it if it didn't waste my time by making me backtrack when i die. at least metroid respawns you close to where you died

Rabi Ribi is metroidvania done right

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I wouldn't have said it like that but I agree

I think these Mark Brown videos do a good job of explaining the appeal of this non-linear, obfuscated design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn2MXwplMZA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouO1R6vFDBo

You talk about dead ends as wasted time, but you could just as easily view them as time spent gaining knowledge and mastery of the space you're in, which will come to your benefit later on. Even if there is only one path through (and often there's not), these forks in the road create choices and the sense that this adventure is truly yours.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Did you get picked on at school today again?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


No offense but it seems like you're growing old and weary over communication in general

WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...

I think there's just some game types that some people enjoy that others don't.

One of my favorite games is The Binding of Isaac and I have tried to get a few friends into it. Some like it and some come back with "Wait, that 30 minute run was for nothing?" and they feel they about wasted time and no progression. I get their point.

It's hard to recommend Isaac as it is now, I feel like Edmund has taken away part of the charm of the game

MarthGoomba posted...

Rabi Ribi is metroidvania done right

Checked out some gameplay. While the mechanics seem nice, what about it being in a MV makes it better than if it were just a side scroller? Because I'm not saying that no MV games have good core mechanics or movement etc, I'm saying that putting a fun character inside a game designed as a MV just makes it way worse since you still have to deal with the forced labyrinth.

Master Kazuya posted...

It's hard to recommend Isaac as it is now, I feel like Edmund has taken away part of the charm of the game

what do you mean? do you think it's too bloated?

Wetterdew posted...

what do you mean? do you think it's too bloated?

Edmund kept nerfing things over and over. He even went back to the old game AFTER Rebirth came out way later (Wrath of the Lamb) and nerfed shit there. He didn't like the way people were combining or getting good with items, he didn't like how people were speedrunning, so he went and nerfed shit and added a ton of filler items. I also don't like the idea of fixed life bosses; part of the charm is sometimes being OP af where you just melt bosses. He openly had a lot of contempt for how people played Isaac and did his dumb "but mah vision" thing. Even if the game became better because of it, it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth, but the thing is that I feel that the changes were overall worse and not needed. He's nerfing the top 1% of players, but Isaac is way more than just how the 1% speedruns.

I dont see how people like JRPG but different strokes and whatnot. I love Metroidvania games.

Everything you hate about metroidvanias is what people like about metroidvanias, more or less.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

That's the worst descriptor ever

Please, please give Astalon: Tears of the Earth a try.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1046400/Astalon_Tears_of_the_Earth/

Sajo posted...

Please, please give Astalon: Tears of the Earth a try.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1046400/Astalon_Tears_of_the_Earth/

I will if you buy it for me ;v

not reading all that but metroid fusion is a banger

The general appeal of the genre is problem-solving. "I got jump boots. I bet I can use these back at the area with the tall platform." It's the Zelda dungeon experience, widened in scope to encompass a whole game.

Beyond that, it's really just a question of level design. Super Metroid is a mostly linear experience for a lot of new players, because the game often encourages a certain direction. But there's still a wide-degree of openness for experienced players, to the point that a popular challenge run involves beating the game "backwards" from Ridley.

DoomtheGrav posted...

not reading all that but metroid fusion is a banger

Someone report all of his posts so this guy is forced to read all of it

Sajo posted...

Please, please give Astalon: Tears of the Earth a try.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1046400/Astalon_Tears_of_the_Earth/

What does it bring to the table, where going back and forth is essential to the gameplay? @Sajo

The general appeal of the genre is problem-solving. "I got jump boots. I bet I can use these back at the area with the tall platform." It's the Zelda dungeon experience, widened in scope to encompass a whole game.

there's one problem with that -- how often do these jump boots actually become tools, and not just keys?

the high jump boots just let you pass the obstacles that were explicitly designed to hold back a player without them, and without knowledge of bomb jumping or wall jumping. it gets a little more blatant in zelda games - i remember there being some item in twilight princess that had like no use outside of the dungeon in which it was found.

functionally, it may as well be doom and they may as well be keycards.

there have been things to blow this concept out of the water, though. namely, the ice beam. think of the rules it adds to your kit:

• you can make platforms
• any area an enemy can get to can have a platform
• have fun

To each their own. I like them even though I get disappointed when I run into a wall and end up looking something up. Happened to me in Samus returns cause I had to take a break (was working most everyday and work was rough at the moment so life was work and sleep pretty much) and forgot what I was doing when I started again.

Symphony of the night I'd probably rank in my top 20 favorite games even though I played it roughly 20 years after it released

Master Kazuya posted...

Or maybe I'm a rat in a lab maze trying to find cheese.

This is why theyre awesome.

Master Kazuya posted...

What does it bring to the table, where going back and forth is essential to the gameplay? @Sajo

Well I'll preface this by saying: I don't play a lot of games in this genre. Over the last 5 years I've only played: Astalon, Ender Lilies, Mystik Belle and Castlevania: Harmony of Despair. I would imagine I'm much less jaded than you are.

Essentially you are tasked with climbing a tower with an unlockable elevator shortcut to different "floors" (usually before a boss) but every time you die you respawn at the start of the tower. However, whenever you die you visit the only shop in the game to buy your character upgrades. You can eventually hotswap between 5 characters with their own upgrades and attack styles and the upgrades I felt weren't shoehorned in for a single puzzle and never used again but instead provided gameplay benefits to fighting the various monsters and bosses in the game.

I beat it twice in 5 days and it is my game of the year for 2021 over every other highly touted game I played.

Playing it brought me back to my youth in a way and the graphics, ost, and challenging gameplay gave me a ton of enjoyment.

If you beat it and care enough there are two alternate character modes (one is a boss, the other is a monster) and a dastardly boss rush mode to experience.