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Current Events > Could the heroes of LotR have won without Gandalf?

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Zikten
10/30/21 7:24:26 PM
#1:


What would happen if Gandalf didn't exist?

Or what would happen if Gandalf sided with Sauron?

Would the world be doomed?
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HesOurYou
10/30/21 7:24:54 PM
#2:


Yeah. He didnt really do anything.

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Southernfatman
10/30/21 7:27:58 PM
#3:


Eru (God) might have just flooded/sank Middle Earth like he did Numenor. Either that or he'd eventually send the Valar in again if things got too bad. Tolkien has said that Sauron surpassed his former master Morgoth in power (through some technicalities, but still) after a while.

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Xavier_On_High
10/30/21 7:28:40 PM
#4:


Absolutely not. At best they could have maybe, maybe delayed the inevitable.

Without Gandalf, no alliances would have been forged and Sauron would have rolled over the realms of men one-by-one. Also no one would have destroyed the One Ring.

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Ruvan22
10/30/21 7:30:09 PM
#5:


Zikten posted...
What would happen if Gandalf didn't exist?

Or what would happen if Gandalf sided with Sauron?

Would the world be doomed?
At Helm's Deep his blinding flash magic or whatever seemed let the Riders break the Urukhai ranks with minimal losses (pikemen and lancers lost their initiative)
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rodu_jr
10/30/21 7:30:20 PM
#6:


Bilbo never finds the Ring, as his quest never happens. Some goblin finds the Ring after Gollum loses it. The Ring makes it's way back to Sauron
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monkmith
10/30/21 7:36:15 PM
#7:


they'd have died in moria.

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Awakened_Link
10/30/21 7:39:25 PM
#8:


In the grand scheme of things, no -- Gandalf was crucial to the victory of Middle-Earth and downfall of Sauron. Gandalf had the power to muster courage in the hearts of men. Without his encouragement, the men of the west would've surely failed. Plus he wielded the Narya, the ring of fire, which I'm sure granted him some subtle magical abilities. He also was the catalyst in major events that helped secure their triumph, such as the defeat of Smaug, discovering the true "identity" of the One Ring Bilbo held, aiding the Westfold at Helm's Deep, and helping lead the siege of Gondor. Not to mention, of course, the Balrog of Moria would've absolutely decimated the Fellowship (and Middle-Earth) had Gandalf not intervened.

This doesn't even factor in him helping thwart Saruman (a significant threat to the free peoples) whom Gandalf succeeded in the order of the wizards after his resurrection.

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sktgamer_13dude
10/30/21 7:46:11 PM
#9:


HesOurYou posted...
Yeah. He didnt really do anything.

Hoth post
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MC_BatCommander
10/30/21 7:48:05 PM
#10:


Probably not, he's pretty integral to everything

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Lairen
10/30/21 7:50:37 PM
#11:


Legolas would win solo.

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Srk700
10/30/21 7:50:54 PM
#12:


Don't remember what he was needed for in The Hobbit, but the Fellowship would have been destroyed by the Balrog in Moria if he wasn't there.
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Lairen
10/30/21 7:52:28 PM
#13:


Srk700 posted...
Don't remember what he was needed for in The Hobbit, but the Fellowship would have been destroyed by the Balrog in Moria if he wasn't there.

Legolas easily solos Balrogs.

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Xethuminra
10/30/21 7:56:01 PM
#14:


The Hobbit? Thats Gandalfs whole operation, man. He basically got bunch of Dwarves, picked them up, carried them through the woods, and threw them down into Smogs layer. They didnt need Gandalf. For anything.

Gandalf needed them. Why? Who cares.
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EffectAndCause
10/30/21 7:56:56 PM
#15:


Everyone dies at Helms Deep.

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Xethuminra
10/30/21 7:59:28 PM
#16:


Wizard with a treasure map

He just wants a small cut

Tolkien was a genius.
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saspa
11/01/21 1:25:12 PM
#17:


Out of curiosity is Legolas as broken in the books as he is in the movies
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Letron_James
11/01/21 1:26:21 PM
#18:


No they fucked without him

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gunplagirl
11/01/21 1:26:47 PM
#19:


After the mines, he could have disappeared. The distraction helped Sam carry Frodo, but wasn't necessary in the end.

But before then, Gandalf was needed.

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dummy420
11/01/21 1:44:05 PM
#20:


Just starting at LOTR Bilbo may have kept the ring and been further corrupted and quickly captured as Saurons armies went through the armies of men. None of the armies would have been united to fight back and the plan to destroy the ring would not have been set in motion because it was Gandalf that actually discovered its power.

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LincolnDuncan
11/01/21 1:44:55 PM
#21:


the Balrog would have just passed over the bridge like nbd

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Pandamonic
11/01/21 1:48:05 PM
#22:


Gandalf pretty much set everything in motion, if he didn't, nothing would've happened and Sauron would surely have won.
And then on the quest itself, Balrog, freeing Theoden from Saruman, Minas Tirith, yeah he was pretty fucking important.

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HBOSS
11/01/21 1:54:21 PM
#23:


Gandalf was significant to the journey. Not even sure if middle earth wouldve known how quickly it wouldve fallen to the forces of Mordor. Gandalf was like the catalyst to preventing Mordor from taking over everything tbh

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philsov
11/01/21 1:56:18 PM
#24:


they'd die before even entering Moria.
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lolife67
11/01/21 1:56:56 PM
#25:


Lol no. Bilbo would never have left the Shire and Sauron would've easily taken the ring from Gollum.
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furb
11/01/21 1:59:09 PM
#26:


Nope enjoy your Balrog.

But honestly they wouldn't even have worked together. Gandalf and his authority helped unite them and validate their mission.

He lead them over mountains, bailed them out of fights, politiced support, and so on.

No way. Even of the council is still held without him, the group would have devolved to infighting and died on the road.

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Esrac
11/01/21 2:00:18 PM
#27:


monkmith posted...
they'd have died in moria. hell, without his interference frodo would have died in the shire when the ringwraiths came.

Without Gandalf's interference, the ringwraiths wouldn't have gone to the Shire, because Bilbo never would've gone on the adventure and gotten the ring in the first place.
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furb
11/01/21 2:04:21 PM
#28:


Esrac posted...
Without Gandalf's interference, the ringwraiths wouldn't have gone to the Shire, because Bilbo never would've gone on the adventure and gotten the ring in the first place.

So that is just a punt. The ring stays in the mountains. It'll make its way out eventually.

The necromancer continues to get stronger and things end up worse. The dwarves don't take back lonely mountain. Smaugh is still alive and an ally of the Sauron.

World is doomed

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Ivany2008
11/01/21 2:15:25 PM
#29:


Christ they could have won if those fucking Eagles had flown them over Mordor at the beginning of the first movie instead of waiting to pick them up at the end of the 3rd.
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LincolnDuncan
11/01/21 2:19:30 PM
#30:


Ivany2008 posted...
Christ they could have won if those fucking Eagles had flown them over Mordor at the beginning of the first movie instead of waiting to pick them up at the end of the 3rd.

One does not simply fly into Mordor.

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Crescente
11/01/21 2:27:04 PM
#31:


Gandalf was huge to the success of destroying the ring. Guy had a lot of connections. He got people together to do things.

Also, don't forget the pivotal moment at the end of the Fellowship of the ring where Frodo almost gave up. Gandalf wasn't even there, but Frodo just thought of him and his wise words, which helped him continue the journey.
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AdrianBeterson
11/01/21 3:02:38 PM
#32:


Ivany2008 posted...
Christ they could have won if those fucking Eagles had flown them over Mordor at the beginning of the first movie instead of waiting to pick them up at the end of the 3rd.
The whole point of Lord of the Rings is to show that The Valar (Gods of the Universe) can't provide too much aid to the free peoples without being fully involved themselves. The free people need to fend for themselves and they can't really do that if the Valar have to step in and help them every single time.

The Eagles are servants of Manwe, a Valar, who was commanded by Eru (The Zeus of this universe, the God of Gods) to exercise only very limited power during the age of men. This prohibited the use of Eagles, except for in dire situations of salvaging desperate battles and saving key persons.

Eru's restrictions was also why Gandalf was only able to exercise very limited powers. Gandalf was not allowed to use his full force, which is why he appears very "weak" in the LOTR. After his death by the Balrog, Eru brought Gandalf back to life with the allowance of using a little more power, but still restricted him heavily.

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AdrianBeterson
11/01/21 3:12:02 PM
#33:


To answer OP, no they would not have succeeded without Gandalf. The Gods sent Gandalf as a guide or a "messenger" to the free people. His purpose was to prode them in the right direction and serve as a catalyst that puts all the pieces together. Without him, everyone remains scattered without direction and Sauron wins. Gandalf's existence is the maximum means by which the Gods intervened in the free peoples battle of this third age.

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#34
Post #34 was unavailable or deleted.
Ruvan22
11/01/21 3:13:07 PM
#35:


furb posted...
So that is just a punt. The ring stays in the mountains. It'll make its way out eventually.

The necromancer continues to get stronger and things end up worse. The dwarves don't take back lonely mountain. Smaugh is still alive and an ally of the Sauron.

World is doomed

Would Smaugh really have allied with Sauron?
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BeyondWalls
11/01/21 3:17:02 PM
#36:


Zikten posted...
What would happen if Gandalf didn't exist?
No adding Bilbo as a burglar.
No hobbit finding the ring.
Ring Wrath finds Gollum.

However... reminder... they still defeated Sauron the first time he had the ring, back when the cut his finger off. So....

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Xethuminra
11/01/21 3:17:07 PM
#37:


Ruvan22 posted...
Would Smaugh really have allied with Sauron?
Yes.

Also, Gollum wore the ring regularly. The Nazgl would have found him quickly when they awoke.
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AdrianBeterson
11/01/21 3:37:49 PM
#38:


BeyondWalls posted...
No adding Bilbo as a burglar.
No hobbit finding the ring.
Ring Wrath finds Gollum.

However... reminder... they still defeated Sauron the first time he had the ring, back when the cut his finger off. So....
They didnt defeat Sauron, they delayed him. Defeating him would mean they destroyed the ring after cutting his finger off, and we all know how that went. So technically, they had the perception of winning but really they still lost.

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Health
11/01/21 3:49:06 PM
#39:


As Aragorn said, the War of the Ring (ie LotR) was really Gandalfs war. You cant really argue with that.
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rodu_jr
11/01/21 5:16:03 PM
#40:


Lairen posted...
Legolas easily solos Balrogs.
he was afraid of the one in the books
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saspa
11/03/21 12:23:26 AM
#41:


mattymad posted...


Not really. I mean all the main crew have plot armour/Deus ex machina up their sleeves but Legolas is actually pretty underdeveloped (as a character) in the books, he's very one dimensional and almost like the token elf party member that Tolkien threw in just to unite all the races against Sauron. He can use a bow sure and is known to be a good shot but he's not some shield surfing 360 no scoping mlg player.

I'd argue that Gimli in the book is a way better character.

I think there was criticism that Gimli seemed to be relegated to comedy relief in the movies especially the sequels

Also I think Legolas was considered to be pretty underdeveloped in the movies too
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Xethuminra
11/03/21 12:26:29 AM
#42:


i think the first film nailed the hobbit as a hybrid elf-dwarf. We love their Gimli & Legolas too :)

The men are the villains, more or less. Its a story of purifying mankind I think
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furb
11/03/21 11:34:48 PM
#43:


Yeah Gimli is quite the romantic in thr books especially when it comes to natural wonders and Galadrial. He is extremely artful with words while telling stories of the works of dwarves.


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Srk700
11/04/21 12:01:27 AM
#44:


Ivany2008 posted...
Christ they could have won if those fucking Eagles had flown them over Mordor at the beginning of the first movie instead of waiting to pick them up at the end of the 3rd.

To add to what AdrianBeterson said, even if they were able to it would be a bad idea for a couple of reasons.

1. The ring can corrupt even the likes of Gandalf (who was scared to even hover his hand over the ring), so the eagles would be susceptible to it as well. There's always the risk that they could become corrupted by it and take the ring for themselves, which they could easily do by dropping Frodo mid flight and taking it off his corpse.

2. Even if they manage to not become influenced by the ring, the Eye of Sauron would have easily seen giant eagles flying into Mordor and commanded the Nazgul with their drakes to attack them before they could get to Mt. Doom.
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Shablagoo
11/04/21 12:02:36 AM
#45:


no Gandalf is the Deus Ex Machina of the story

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Xethuminra
11/04/21 12:03:30 AM
#46:


Shablagoo posted...
no Gandalf is the Deus Ex Machina of the story
Theyre playing The Hobbit on SyFy. I remember the movie looking worse for some reason
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Returning_CEmen
11/04/21 12:15:44 AM
#47:


All they needed were Great Eagles

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Ruvan22
11/04/21 1:22:47 PM
#48:


Returning_CEmen posted...
All they needed were Great Eagles
Well Glenn Frye died ...
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