Current Events > Question about Wizards in Lord of the Rings (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

So Wizards aren't supposed to use their powers to interfere in things. But Saruman can conjure up snowstorm and lightning on the fellowship before the mines of moria? Is it because he's a baddy?

---

ya. pretty much he's a dick wizard.

---

Saruman was drawing power from Melkor & betrayed the other Wizards

By the time of the movies, Gandalf is the only Wizard left that is still doing what he was meant to do. The other Wizards all abandoned the mission

^this too

They can use their powers to interfere if they want. Gandalf just says that cause he doesn't want to waste his magic powers.

Why waste energy on some stupid weather spell to please a hobbit when doing so would also be detected by Sarumon (something Gandalf knows but doesn't want to explain to the hobbits)?

---

Xethuminra posted...

Saruman was drawing power from Melkor & betrayed the other Wizards

So I started a bit of Silmarillion but never finished but I at least got some understanding of the power structures/heirarchies and whatnot. Melkor dude is still alive?

And so if Gandalf was to do more than his lightshow during the ride of the Rohirim (sp?) and his battle against the Balrog (since I'm guessing that was solely a 1v1 thing?), one of the good gods/deities/whatever they are will punish him?

---

Zikten posted...

By the time of the movies, Gandalf is the only Wizard left that is still doing what he was meant to do. The other Wizards all abandoned the mission

Well we don't know what the blue dudes were up to do we

---

Sauron is only a proxy of Melkor

One his generals

Touch posted...

Is it because he's a baddy?

Pretty much. It's not so much that they aren't supposed to use their powers to interfere, but that they aren't supposed to use them to try to build armies/dominate/rival Sauron by force. Gandalf does a lot of teaching and guiding but uses his powers as necessary. Saruman just kinda said fuck it imma do the Sauron thing.

---

Melkor is alive but outside the plane of existence currently. He will come back.

Blue wizards went east, debate over what they did. But whatever they did, it only impacts the books very indirectly if at all.

---

Xethuminra posted...

Sauron is only a proxy of Melkor

One his generals

Ah okay. Proxy

---

Touch posted...

Melkor dude is still alive?

I'd hesitate to take anything Xethu says seriously about any subject on the planet. Melkor is technically cast out of Arda for the time being but Saruman had no known interaction with him.

---

Melkor controls Sauron
Sauron controls the rings

Touch posted...

So I started a bit of Silmarillion but never finished but I at least got some understanding of the power structures/heirarchies and whatnot. Melkor dude is still alive?

And so if Gandalf was to do more than his lightshow during the ride of the Rohirim (sp?) and his battle against the Balrog (since I'm guessing that was solely a 1v1 thing?), one of the good gods/deities/whatever they are will punish him?

No, Gandalf wouldn't be punished.

It's more of a Star Trek "don't fuck with shit if you don't have to" principle that they said they followed.

Gandalf is divinely-favored. When he dies, he gets sent back. I'm pretty sure there are no rules outside of "don't be fucking evil" that would warrant divine punishment. Sarumon goes evil, and "God or an Angel" sends Gandalf back to life to orchestrate divine retribution.

Making it stop raining is stupid, and might fuck with the ecosystem.

---

Exactly

Normal or nothing

My impression is that the wizards as Miar can use their powers at will. They have duties but can blow them off. The Valar are not taking acting roles in Middle Earth or enforcing that the wizards follow their duties.

---

Touch posted...

Ah okay. Proxy

Shezarr posted...

I'd hesitate to take anything Xethu says seriously about any subject on the planet. Melkor is technically cast out of Arda for the time being but Saruman had no known interaction with him.

^ lol.

Sauron was still devoted to big daddy after his defeat but he's not a "proxy for Melkor" or whatever Xethu is saying (he has me blocked). He's doing his own thing now.

---

Theres having a little fun

and then theres plotting to resurrect Lucifer lol

Quote from JRR re: Gandal's use of his powers:

The wizards, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf. Of course he remains similar in personalituy and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of conceling his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an angel - no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison. [...] He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.

---

Its a good story

My take is in a broad sense, Melkor is the source of discord. Sauron falls in with that influence and becomes a general for Melkor. Melkor is outside Arda atm, but Sauron is basically manteling him. He might not be taking orders from Melkor directly, but he is still acting in a role that is broadly due to Melkor's original discord. I think considering him a proxy is a good way to characterize him.

---

Wherever Melkor is, I think Sauron is supposed to be there too, and this is the source of the power of his Ring

BuckVanHammer posted...

ya. pretty much he's a dick wizard.

Dick wizard is my favorite d&d class.
---

furb posted...

My take is in a broad sense, Melkor is the source of discord. Sauron falls in with that influence and becomes a general for Melkor. Melkor is outside Arda atm, but Sauron is basically manteling him. He might not be taking orders from Melkor directly, but he is still acting in a role that is broadly due to Melkor's original discord. I think considering him a proxy is a good way to characterize him.

Fair take in this sense

---