Current Events > Did you like Bioshock Infinites ending? (Spoiler)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I like what it tried to do but it came off as clumsy and just logic pulled from their asses.

Theres a million universes but we do this one thing and end all possible universes with comstock.

And to be honest i have no idea what comstock wanted to do. It just came off as "Im evil and want Elizabeth to take over my evil plans! Hahaha!"

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Like most of the story, it was cool when I first played it, but it falls apart when you think about it.

LordMarshal posted...

And to be honest i have no idea what comstock wanted to do. It just came off as "Im evil and want Elizabeth to take over my evil plans! Hahaha!"

This isn't true though. Comstock is a religious despot who wants to spread his ideology to the entire world.

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pegusus123456 posted...

Like most of the story, it was cool when I first played it, but it falls apart when you think about it.

This isn't true though. Comstock is a religious despot who wants to spread his ideology to the entire world.

His ideology is loose throughout the whole game and i dont get needing a reality bending daughter for it.

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It was pretty trash

The story in general lost my interest after they started hopping universes to find the gunmaker. Nothing felt like it mattered after that point.
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It was kind of dopey in retrospect but I liked it in the moment.

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No, it doesn't make sense

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Going for the infinite alternate dimensions approach, with limitless access, just ruins the whole thing. Elizabeth could've escaped anywhere at any point.

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LordMarshal posted...

His ideology is loose throughout the whole game and i dont get needing a reality bending daughter for it.

A reality bending daughter certainly doesn't hurt if you're trying to take over the world.

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And then they retcon it with the DLC going "oh hey, you know all those inventions into plasmids and ADAM sinclair did? ACKCHYUALLY it was all inspired by Columbia even though it should've been wiped from existence!" Which goes into disturbing implications when you think that the ending accomplished nothing and there are still genocidal evil Elizabeths out there.
Oh yeah, the ending for the DLC was also fucking stupid.
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The game goes from like a 10 to an 8 by the end. The first two hours or so are so amazing. No matter how many times I replay it. The awe of everything is badass

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pegusus123456 posted...

A reality bending daughter certainly doesn't hurt if you're trying to take over the world.

But what if shes not down with the plan?....womp womp

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LordMarshal posted...

But what if shes not down with the plan?....womp womp

That's what the brainwashing and torture is for.

I mean, even the in-game Elizabeth eventually succumbed and went along with the plan.

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pegusus123456 posted...

That's what the brainwashing and torture is for.

I mean, even the in-game Elizabeth eventually succumbed and went along with the plan.

But theres millions that didnt. But also she can change them all with one act which doesnt make sense....

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No.

i regret playing the DLC knowing how (the final?)elizabeth ended up dying when the base game ended up a somewhat happy note.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

i regret playing the DLC knowing how (the final?)elizabeth ended up dying when the base game ended up a somewhat happy note.

Yeah, omnipresent/omnipotent Elizabeth decides to sacrifice herself to save one little sister so that Jack can win and beat Bioshock 1... in one timeline. There isn't even anything like the for certain drowning Booker right before he baptizes will never have him turn into Comstock (even though according to the DLC that didn't work anyway). There's no guarantee that there aren't an infinite amount of universes where Jack never makes it to Rapture, where he dies somewhere inside Rapture, where he's going on an evil run harvesting sisters or even just decided to skip Elizabeth's sister. There is literally cutscenes in Bioshock 1 for evil and bad endings so it's not like Elizabeth "forced" a singular canon run where Jack saved everyone. The whole idea of a singular canon goes against the whole premise of the game's "infinite universes" anyway.

So Elizabeth, someone who exists above space and time and could probably indirectly help a lot more universes sacs herself to save one person in one timeline.
There's also the fact that her interacting with the world makes her mortal again makes no sense to begin with when the Luteces were perfectly fine interacting with the world and keeping their immortality.
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LordMarshal posted...

But theres millions that didnt

That doesn't impact Comstock's plan which is what you were taking issue with.

GiftedACIII posted...

There's also the fact that her interacting with the world makes her mortal again makes no sense to begin with when the Luteces were perfectly fine interacting with the world and keeping their immortality.

The Luteces didn't die, they were scattered across space and time.

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GiftedACIII posted...

oh hey, you know all those inventions into plasmids and ADAM sinclair did? ACKCHYUALLY it was all inspired by Columbia even though it should've been wiped from existence!

The other way 'round.

GiftedACIII posted...

Yeah, omnipresent/omnipotent Elizabeth decides to sacrifice herself to save one little sister so that Jack can win and beat Bioshock 1... in one timeline

She wasn't omni at the time. BaS2 makes it explicit that she was "brought down to normal" as a result of ending the Rapture Comstock. She was basically just trying to make one last little difference on her way out.

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pegusus123456 posted...

That doesn't impact Comstock's plan which is what you were taking issue with.

The Luteces didn't die, they were scattered across space and time.

But youre torturing a reality bender. If they exist in multiple realities its safe to say some went really bad so in theory a countless number of them could come at you from any point in time or erase you altogether.

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LordMarshal posted...

But your torturing a reality bender. If exists in multiple realities its safe to say some went really bad so on theory a countless number of them could come at you from any point in time or erase you altogether.

Comstock is 1) a religious zealot and 2) Booker. It's safe to say he's not that smart.

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pegusus123456 posted...

Comstock is 1) a religious zealot and 2) Booker. It's safe to say he's not that smart.

His plan was bad cause hes dumb? Yeah that adds to the problems.

And honestly Bookers whole plot seems like they made it up literally at the ending.

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Anyway, it's funny I've been getting an itch to run through all of BioShock again. Don't know what it is but the setting just attracts me.

As for the specific ending to BSI, I was initially perturbed that they just kind of abandoned Columbia thematically and conceptually just to focus on Booker and Elizabeth, but I guess it wasn't the thing I least liked about BSI. Above that was the odd commitment to Call-of-Duty style gameplay and the aforementioned Columbia setting just being handled poorly, the worst of the lot being the assumption that the Vox just has to become evil so we have more bad guys to shoot on our way to the next objective.

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And also they just teleported to rapture for no reason or i didnt follow at all....

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LordMarshal posted...

But youre torturing a reality bender. If they exist in multiple realities its safe to say some went really bad so in theory a countless number of them could come at you from any point in time or erase you altogether.

I honestly don't think anyone had any real inkling of the full capacity of Elizabeth's power, including Elizabeth, until she realized it at the very end.

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LordMarshal posted...

And also they just teleported to rapture for no reason or i didnt follow at all....

I seem to recall the point was to destroy Songbird with an incredible amount of pressure. Best place to do that is deep under the sea, and best way to do that and not die yourself is be in a location that has livable space deep under the sea.

EDIT: Now that's not me doubting that they wanted an excuse to go to Rapture. They wanted every excuse, especially given BaS.

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"This super mechanical bird watches over her. Dont worry: shed have to figure out 4 notes to control him and after that she could just off him with her God like reality bending powers."

-Dumbass Bookerstock, probably.

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CyricZ posted...

I seem to recall the point was to destroy Songbird with an incredible amount of pressure. Best place to do that is deep under the sea, and best way to do that and not die yourself is be in a location that has livable space deep under the sea.

EDIT: Now that's not me doubting that they wanted an excuse to go to Rapture. They wanted every excuse, especially given BaS.

Or just close a tear on any of the majority of songbirds body.....which she can open freely exactly when this happens.

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pegusus123456 posted...

The Luteces didn't die, they were scattered across space and time.

That happened to Elizabeth too.

The Luteces begrudgingly come to Elizabeth's aid and explain that when she died, she remained in existence because of her quantum-superposition, but she could not return to Rapture without collapsing her unique quantum state and becoming a normal person - a result of returning to the dimension in which she first died. Thus when Elizabeth returned to Rapture, she lost her ability to manipulate Tears and became effectively trapped there. All she would have left was her knowledge and fragments of memory of what she saw behind the doors - all that Elizabeth has to do is to rescue Sally and survive.

But that begs the question of how Elizabeth can die in the first place because the Luteces can become transparent and have all your bullets miss them when you try shooting at them. And even if Elizabeth just inexplicably happens to not be able to do that why couldn't she warp space or make a tear to erase the Big Daddy that kills her, which she had already done previously on the Songbird?

CyricZ posted...

The other way 'round.

She wasn't omni at the time. BaS2 makes it explicit that she was "brought down to normal" as a result of ending the Rapture Comstock. She was basically just trying to make one last little difference on her way out.

Both of them collaborated and helped each other but that shouldn't be possible in the first place since Columbia should've been wiped out.

Also, she chooses to return to Rapture to save Sally (and cause a civil war killing thousands of more people in the process, including the plane Jack was on) in that one timeline. She would've been safe if she stayed away. But the fact that she can become mortal that way and that she wasn't able to save herself from the Big Daddy are asspulls themselves.
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LordMarshal posted...

His plan was bad cause hes dumb? Yeah that adds to the problems.

Not really. There are problems with the story, but Comstock's plan isn't one of them. Religious zealots always believe they're right, so it wouldn't have crossed his mind that other Elizabeths would try to stop him. He's also Booker who didn't really understand the alternate reality thing, so it makes even more sense that he didn't think about it. It's a believable human failing.

GiftedACIII posted...

That happened to Elizabeth too.

No, she died. She fell on a piece of rebar.

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LordMarshal posted...

Or just close a tear on any of the majority of songbirds body.....which she can open freely exactly when this happens.

Well I can't argue that, and we know it works because that's literally how the plot for the game kicks off.

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pegusus123456 posted...

Not really. There are problems with the story, but Comstock's plan isn't one of them. Religious zealots always believe they're right, so it wouldn't have crossed his mind that other Elizabeths would try to stop him. He's also Booker who didn't really understand the alternate reality thing, so it makes even more sense that he didn't think about it. It's a believable human failing.

No, she died. She fell on a piece of rebar.

The entire ending is why its a problem.....yeah why would anyone trying to take over the world think about their plan? I mean lets write the character stupid like that. Perfect.

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CyricZ posted...

Well I can't argue that, and we know it works because that's literally how the plot for the game kicks off.

"Im going to a place that ruins my God powers."
-Elizabeth, probably.

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GiftedACIII posted...

Both of them collaborated and helped each other but that shouldn't be possible in the first place since Columbia should've been wiped out.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say about "should have been wiped out". You mean there's no Columbia in the Rapture universe so it's impossible for them to collaborate?

(and cause a civil war killing thousands of more people in the process, including the plane Jack was on)

"Cause a civil war" is overstating it. She played a small part in the effort that Ryan and Fontaine had far greater responsibility for, and she did so knowing it would result in failure for the bad guys. Not like one mortal woman could save the entirety of Rapture at that point.

She would've been safe if she stayed away.

Don't think that's what she was looking for.

But the fact that she can become mortal that way and that she wasn't able to save herself from the Big Daddy are asspulls themselves.

I mean strictly speaking, yes, an Elizabeth being "left over" isn't established in her omnipresent power set that was already well beyond conventional explanation anyway.

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LordMarshal posted...

"Im going to a place that ruins my God powers."
-Elizabeth, probably.

What? No. She ruined her god powers by killing all the Bookerstocks. That was the point of it all. Rapture had nothing to do with that.

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pegusus123456 posted...

No, she died. She fell on a piece of rebar.

She became above space and time at the end of Infinite too.
She somehow died at the end of BAS1 by the Bouncer Big Daddy

After the events of Burial at Sea - Episode 1 on December 31, 1958, Elizabeth was killed by the Bouncer in the Toys Department of Fontaine's Department Store in Rapture. However, she remained in existence because of her quantum-superposition, but couldn't return to that Rapture without consequences. Elizabeth did choose to return to Rapture to save Sally and thus giving up her Tear powers in the process. After returning, she finds her own body impaled through the heart by a piece of rebar and remembers the events that led to it.

Even though she should A.be able to handle him with no issues. and B. the Luteces seem perfectly immortal whenever they interact with Booker within the same dimension.
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I enjoyed the experience of it, very well presented and mind-blowing the first time, with Songbird and Rapture and the lighthouses.

But yeah I didn't really get why post-Columbia Booker had to be killed in order to stop any pre-baptism Bookers becoming Comstocks. Or how Elizabeth / Elizabeths could do the killing if there never was a Booker becoming Comstock to make her Elizabeth. Was kind of an anti anticlimax after the climax. Like in a horror film after the last girl survives the demon ghost, and everything seems normal again, then right at the end the demon ghost appears in a mirror and gets her and that's the end and its kinda pointless.

Also the DLCs, which were both great to play but again felt kinda sad and pointless at the end, how was there another post-baptism Booker in Rapture?

Elizabeths powers are literal plot convenience.

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LordMarshal posted...

The entire ending is why its a problem.....yeah why would anyone trying to take over the world think about their plan? I mean lets write the character stupid like that. Perfect.

He thought about the plan, but his flaws meant he didn't consider that Elizabeth from another reality would drown him in a baptism pool. Character flaws are not bad writing.

GiftedACIII posted...

She became above space and time at the end of Infinite too.
She somehow died at the end of BAS1 by the Bouncer Big Daddy

The circumstances are still different though. It's perfectly believable that Elizabeth can be killed and the Luteces can't. Elizabeth had power over space and time, the Luteces were scattered across all of it.

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pegusus123456 posted...

He thought about the plan, but his flaws meant he didn't consider that Elizabeth from another reality would drown him in a baptism pool. Character flaws are not bad writing.

The circumstances are still different though. It's perfectly believable that Elizabeth can be killed and the Luteces can't. Elizabeth had power over space and time, the Luteces were scattered across all of it.

How to prison elizabeth:
-Super bird that obeys 4 notes
-Should she figure this out youre fucked

How can he be this dumb?

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LordMarshal posted...

-Super bird that obeys 4 notes

You're hanging a little heavily on this for something no human should ever be able to puzzle out without basically being directly told.

Which she was, essentially.

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CyricZ posted...

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say about "should have been wiped out". You mean there's no Columbia in the Rapture universe so it's impossible for them to collaborate?

Columbia shouldn't exist at all. The ending of Infinite should've removed Columbia from existing all timelines everywhere. The whole point of the ending was so that Columbia never existed. The existence of Columbia in BAS2 and being able to influence Sinclair should be impossible unless it means that the ending actually didn't work and they failed and that there are still infinite universes where comstock succeeded and there are genocidal Elizabeths set to conquer other universes.

CyricZ posted...

"Cause a civil war" is overstating it. She played a small part in the effort that Ryan and Fontaine had far greater responsibility for, and she did so knowing it would result in failure for the bad guys. Not like one mortal woman could save the entirety of Rapture at that point.

iirc Ryan was actually about to defeat Fontaine before Elizabeth intervened. Yeah, Ryan was still a tyrant ruling a dystopia but Elizabeth did directly help Fontaine cause the terrorist attacks and the subsequent all out war that basically wiped the entire population.

CyricZ posted...

Don't think that's what she was looking for.

I'm not sure what's the point of this one-liner. The point I'm making is that she sacrificed herself to help a single timeline when she could aid countless more as a quantum superposition person. And there's no guarantee that Sally in that timeline won't die anyway.

CyricZ posted...

I mean strictly speaking, yes, an Elizabeth being "left over" isn't established in her omnipresent power set that was already well beyond conventional explanation anyway.

I mean the fact that she could become mortal like that is an asspull.
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CyricZ posted...

You're hanging a little heavily on this for something no human should ever be able to puzzle out without basically being directly told.

Which she was, essentially.

Im bent on the "use daughter with god powers by torturing her but have few measures holding her back from doing what she did"

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I dont like how Rapture is now connected to this other story about infinite dimensions.

I hope they scrap that if they ever make another Rapture Bioshock game or if we ever get a movie.

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iPhone_7 posted...

I dont like how Rapture is now connected to this other story about infinite dimensions.

I hope they scrap that if they ever make another Rapture Bioshock game or if we ever get a movie.

Tbh yeah it takes away from rapture.....

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pegusus123456 posted...

The circumstances are still different though. It's perfectly believable that Elizabeth can be killed and the Luteces can't. Elizabeth had power over space and time, the Luteces were scattered across all of it.

You have to really stretch it to find the differences. There's also the fact that with Columbia not existing, the Luteces themselves would've never had the funding for their experiments either and so should be their normal selves in their original universes.
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GiftedACIII posted...

The ending of Infinite should've removed Columbia from existing all timelines everywhere.

I dunno. I'd think it'd be only timelines where Booker, Elizabeth, and Columbia existed.

iirc Ryan was actually about to defeat Fontaine

I restate, she would not have been able to save Rapture.\

The point I'm making is that she sacrificed herself to help a single timeline when she could aid countless more as a quantum superposition person.

Again, the whole point of her effort at the end of BSI was to remove herself from all timelines. You're basically saying her own removal of herself was stupid and she should have just been a god of causality.

I mean the fact that she could become mortal like that is an asspull.

I mean yeah, it was just an effort to get some playable Elizabeth, but you can't say for certain that she didn't have such a power. Kind of the nature of these vague causal superpowers.

And there's no guarantee that Sally in that timeline won't die anyway.

Well of course Sally will die. Everyone dies. Elizabeth didn't have some grand scheme when she was looking to save her. She just wanted to do one last bit of good, regardless of whether it meant something long term.

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iPhone_7 posted...

I dont like how Rapture is now connected to this other story about infinite dimensions.

You don't like how a particular dimension is connected to the concept of infinite dimensions?

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Elizabeth was actually the friends we made along the way.

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I never played the dlc but bioshock infinite is probably one of my favorite game endings of all time, everything about that game struck the right chords with me

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