Current Events > Give me one reason why society needs "billionaires"

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polopili posted...

Wealth is produced by creating intellectual and physical goods that fullfeed a need (extra needs can always be created through marketing). Physical goods are limited by the volume of ressources we can extract from the planet. Since intellectual goods mostly require time and brainpower we could consider it the to be infinite source of wealth. But then again most of the population is not very smart, there's probably cap on the need for intellectual goods.

I'm not sure what you're counting as an "intellectual good" here, but time and brainpower are also finite resources

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Well this topic is predictably filled with brainworms

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It's definitely an issue worth talking about, but nobody is going to be able to have an actual conversation until people stop trying to act like the accumulation of wealth itself is the issue rather than how the power behind that wealth is utilized. It's like a mix of actual concern and petty envy for the rich. Get rid of all the billionaires, then the people with hundreds of millions will still have the same issues and power.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Well that but also billionaires absolutely do become rich at the expense of other people

They do not. You are not poorer because Bezos created Amazon (you're a little wealthier if you use that service, in fact). You wouldn't be richer if he went bankrupt tomorrow. There would be no Amazon employees without Amazon, they are paid higher than average wages because the company is so successful and their wage is not even determined by the net worth of Bezos.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Although sometimes it's neither. Oil spills & coal pollution are making people rich while hurting people all over the world.

This is called an externality and proponents of free markets believe it should be taxed.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

They do not. You are not poorer because Bezos created Amazon

Read entire post please.

Well that but also billionaires absolutely do become rich at the expense of other people, it's just that the other people are their employees and not their customers.

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...read my entire post.

Tyranthraxus posted...

it's just that the other people are their employees and not their customers.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

There would be no Amazon employees without Amazon, they are paid higher than average wages because the company is so successful and their wage is not even determined by the net worth of Bezos.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The sea mink is extinct because of the fur industry.

JS

We may have a lot of resources but if we're not careful with how we use them they will run out and we won't even notice we're running out.

when i say resources i dont mean exotic fur coats

i mean literally a normal life like any middle class suburban or city American should have and can have

we have the raw resources to sustain that lifestyle for a long time if we do it right

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Does Tyranous wanna go back to 6-8 week shipping?

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Broseph_Stalin posted...

There would be no Amazon employees without Amazon, they are paid higher than average wages because the company is so successful and their wage is not even determined by the net worth of Bezos.

That has literally nothing up do with the fact that they're being forced to piss in bottles to make deadlines. Amazon / Bezos has objectively been exploiting his work force and the $15 wage is a last ditch effort to try to stop unionization because he knows his employees will demand more compensation. Not necessarily with money but with better schedules & less stressful work.

AtelierRyza3462 posted...

Does Tyranous wanna go back to 6-8 week shipping?

What kind of dumb fucking question is this anyway. "Oh no if you free the slaves the price of cotton textiles will go up"

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Give me one reason why society needs "Trickfinger"

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Tyranthraxus posted...

That has literally nothing up do with the fact that they're being forced to piss in bottles to make deadlines. Amazon / Bezos has objectively been exploiting his work force and the $15 wage is a last ditch effort to try to stop unionization because he knows his employees will demand more compensation. Not necessarily with money but with better schedules & less stressful work.

This is an argument for collective bargaining, not an argument for the zero-sum fallacy. You still can't explain how Amazon workers would be wealthier if the company was worth less, or never existed at all. And their wages aren't a "last ditch effort", they are what the company has been paying for some time now because wealthier companies can and do pay higher wages to attract and retain workers.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

This is an argument for collective bargaining, not an argument for the zero-sum fallacy. You still can't explain how Amazon workers would be wealthier if the company was worth less, or never existed at all. And their wages aren't a "last ditch effort", they are what the company has been paying for some time now because wealthier companies can and do pay higher wages to attract and retain workers.

I am not arguing for zero sum. I am just stating that billionaires are absolutely exploiting people for their gains.

What's the tradeoff for not having to piss in bottles? Well workers aren't as exhausted. Their mental and physical health improves. Money doesn't really change for anyone. Customers wait a few extra days to get their $4000 HDMI cable.

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up

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Give me one reason why I should care if someone made a billion dollars selling hundreds of millions of people goods and/or services that improved their life?

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Society doesn't "need" something for it to exist.

Nobody "needs" Snickers bars either, but there they are.

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Society absolutely doesnt need billionaires, but I wouldnt want a society where we put a hardcap on wealth

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CHM_Punk posted...

The creation and existence of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general revokes the pants on fire claim of wealth is finite.

He already preemptively addressed that in the very post youre replying to:

averagejoel posted...

money is based on control or ownership of resources. the amount of resources that we have on earth is finite. so unless you're talking exclusively about numbers on a screen, that wealth is finite as well

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Give me one reason why I should care if someone made a billion dollars selling hundreds of millions of people goods and/or services that improved their life?

when they get to 100 billion or 10 billion they can start shaping world events and stunting democracy / individuals rights

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As I have to repeat, wealth is not cash. As such the advent of billionaires has had a lot to do with the consolidation of the economy under fewer and fewer people. Amazon and Bezos are as rich as they are because there isn't 5 or 6 or better yet dozens of other Amazons doing the same thing, dividing the revenue pool, and ensuring a better competitive environment for labor. Of course the stock in that copany is going to be valuable and they have leeway to treat employees like shit: more and more they're the only game in town and we buy into it so much we hate them, yet doubled their profits last year in increased business.

In that regard, we do need them as they seem to be the only people willing to do a lot of what keeps the world going while we, we don't want to run a delivery company, just be the delivery boy. Yes, some unscruptionless things happen that makes competition hard, but like many arguments about money, we'd rather the free money answer, not the "let me be a big success too" answer.

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Why shouldn't someone be allowed to keep the money they've earned?

lightwarrior78 posted...

we don't want to run a delivery company, just be the delivery boy

......

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averagejoel posted...

I don't think it does. can you elaborate on this?

hey @CHM_Punk you didn't elaborate on it

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CHM_Punk posted...

I already posted, as have several other posters. You continuing to the operate under a worldview that has been proven factually incorrect since the time of Adam Smith is you choosing to stick your fingers in your ears shouting la, la, la, la, la adhering to fringe far-left ideologies pedaling economic illiteracy lol. Wealth isnt and never will be a fixed pie, an Indian person living in India getting a job in India wasnt at the expense of an American citizen living in the United States. An immigrant on a work visa in the United States didnt get a job at the expense of an American. A billionaire generating higher wealth internationally through globalization by producing and creating billions of services and jobs for the planet didnt come at the expense of a deadbeat twenty-something year old kid living in their parents basement reading crap off of Jacobin or RT that doesnt do shit with their lives.

no one claimed that it was a "fixed pie", but it's still not infinite

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You know hes right because of the aggressive hostility.

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Reminder that joel has literally admitted in the past that being proven wrong does not change his opinion.

CHM_Punk posted...

A fixed pie implies a finite amount lol.

it does. but it also implies an unchanging amount

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CHM_Punk posted...

A fixed pie implies a finite amount lol.

Do you think our Earths resources, particularly considering our current modes of production, are infinite?

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Shablagoo posted...

Do you think our Earths resources, particularly considering our current modes of production, are infinite?

we wont actually run out of what we need for thousands of years assuming we are stuck to this galaxy

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