Current Events > Wait why do people want murderers and sexual assaulters to not be punished?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Conflict posted...

Citation needed

Literal logic

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IdiotMachine posted...

Statistics and data shows rehab works better than punishment. However, emotionally, most folks (like you) prefer punishment regardless.

This whole topic and nobody asked for a citation for this.

Also TC is correct. Punishment isn't just to punish the criminal, it sets an example of what will happen to would be criminals. A deterrent. If someone is teetering on the edge of committing a heinous crime and the punishment of law is their weighing factor, they might be more inclined to go through with it if they know prison will be cushy and not have many years. Or less inclined if they know it's life in non cushy prison.
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voldothegr8 posted...

This whole topic and nobody asked for a citation for this.

Also TC is correct. Punishment isn't just to punish the criminal, it sets an example of what will happen to would be criminals. A deterrent. If someone is teetering on the edge of committing a heinous crime and the punishment of law is their weighing factor, they might be more inclined to go through with it if they know prison will be cushy and not have many years. Or less inclined if they know it's life in non cushy prison.

I think they are referring to the individual who committed the crime themselves. In that case, yes I'm sure that rehab ensures for that specific individual that they will be less likely to commit crimes again.

But a lot of people are missing the point that I'm referring to the fact that the population as a whole will only commit more crime as a result.

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Dunno if we need to go full Sweden or whatever country, but our entire prison system is definitely fucked up and needs major work.

TrevorLawrence posted...

Yeah works better for that individual who committed the crime obviously but it encourages more crime overall so that's a net negative

This is false.

TheOtherMike posted...

This is false.

It's literally not false and I already posted the study that people always confuse in post 49

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TrevorLawrence posted...

It's literally not false and I already posted the study that people always confuse in post 49

It literally is, and your link doesn't even touch on rehabilitation vs. punishment. You're wrong.

TheOtherMike posted...

It literally is, and your link doesn't even touch on rehabilitation vs. punishment. You're wrong.

Yes - it does for the individual that committed the crime. Rehab makes it more likely that specific person will become a better member of society and we all agree with that statement.

Others were arguing that means overall population-wide crime rates will also be lower (and mentioned studies have shown that). I pointed out those studies that they are referring to actually are not accurate in the sense that they think they are. The researchers of those studies themselves admit the studies are flawed which is what I pointed out with that link.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

I pointed out those studies that they are referring to actually are not accurate in the sense that they think they are. The researchers of those studies themselves admit the studies are flawed which is what I pointed out with that link.

And you're wrong.

If there is proof of rehab working I'd be willing to give it a try. I believe that most people never change. Maybe I'm wrong?

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TheOtherMike posted...

And you're wrong.

I'm just stating what it says in the studies by the researchers themselves >_>

How is that wrong

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Frizzurd posted...

If there is proof of rehab working I'd be willing to give it a try. I believe that most people never change. Maybe I'm wrong?

It actually does work better for the individual who committed the crime but that's not what I'm talking about here and a lot people seem to be confused.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

I'm just stating what it says in the studies by the researchers themselves >_>

How is that wrong

It doesn't say that at all.

I'm not even trolling - no one has rebutted my point that less deterrence (aka using rehab instead of punishment) for the worst committed crimes actually increases crime rates for the entire population as a whole because everyone becomes less fearful of the consequences. It only decreases the potential of committing a crime again for the individual who committed the crime in the first place.

A few people have pointed out that I am inaccurate about the first bolded portion but that's why I posted the reference in post 49.

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TheOtherMike posted...

It doesn't say that at all.

"Police deter crime by increasing the perception that criminals will be caught and punished."

It says this which means making people realize that they will actually be caught and punished is a deterrence. Just simply increasing punishment didn't work because people didn't realize that punishment was being increased in the first place. When they actually realized it - they were more deterred.

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User since Dec 2020

Lol

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Gwynevere posted...

User since Dec 2020

Lol

Why does everyone hate new accounts ; _ ;

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TrevorLawrence posted...

Why does everyone hate new accounts ; _ ;

Have you ever seen a new account make a topic like "just went to Burger King"?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Have you ever seen a new account make a topic like "just went to Burger King"?

I've made other topics just no one noticed

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TrevorLawrence posted...

I've made other topics just no one noticed

A man pushed to his very limit

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TrevorLawrence posted...

"Police deter crime by increasing the perception that criminals will be caught and punished."

It says this which means making people realize that they will actually be caught and punished is a deterrence. Just simply increasing punishment didn't work because people didn't realize that punishment was being increased in the first place. When they actually realized it - they were more deterred.

This doesn't say that rehabilitation is less effective than US style punishment. The fear of being "caught and punished" is still present in countries that rehabilitate their inmates.

Interestingly, the most vocal proponents of this stance also tend to be the ones who most aggressively demand harsher action on sexual assault.

Out of the many people I've known who hold both of these views, I've yet to hear even one explain how the two can be reconciled with each other.

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Trumble posted...

who most aggressively demand harsher action on sexual assault.

I think having cases go to trial doesn't contradict getting rid of punishment altogether. From what I've gathered, that camp is mostly upset that cases barely make it to court and then just get thrown out.

Trials would still have a role and you can have them without jails. In fact a trial probably brings out guilt and shame better than jail time, but who knows.

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TheOtherMike posted...

This doesn't say that rehabilitation is less effective than US style punishment. The fear of being "caught and punished" is still present in countries that rehabilitate their inmates.

Right, which means the more severe punishment the population is aware of the more of a deterrent it is towards committing crime.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

Right, which means the more severe punishment the population is aware of the more of a deterrent it is towards committing crime.

Wrong.

TheOtherMike posted...

Wrong.

More like right - it's basic logic and proven over and over again when the population is aware of the actual consequences.

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This is literally "my feelings are better than facts" the topic.

You feel those people deserve harsh punishments not because it works but because you get satisfaction from it.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

More like right - it's basic logic and proven over and over again when the population is aware of the actual consequences.

Literally all of this is false. What has been proven over and over again is that nations that focus on rehabilitation enjoy lower overall crime and lower recidivism than the US, and you've spent the last two days failing to demonstrate otherwise.

TrevorLawrence posted...

but it encourages more crime overall so that's a net negative

You have zero evidence of this.

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TheOtherMike posted...

Literally all of this is false. What has been proven over and over again is that nations that focus on rehabilitation enjoy lower overall crime and lower recidivism than the US, and you've spent the last two days failing to demonstrate otherwise.

All of those countries you are referring to have low poverty rates and strong social programs which is the reason why they have low crime rates. It has nothing to do with focusing on rehabilitation.

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IdiotMachine posted...

Statistics and data shows rehab works better than punishment. However, emotionally, most folks (like you) prefer punishment regardless.

So you think the BTK killer or Ted Bundy could have been rehabilitated?
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TrevorLawrence posted...

All of those countries you are referring to have low poverty rates and strong social programs which is the reason why they have low crime rates. It has nothing to do with focusing on rehabilitation.

Both are factors. Regardless, this doesn't in any way suggest that punishment is itself a deterrent over rehabilitation.

Hop103 posted...

So you think the BTK killer or Ted Bundy could have been rehabilitated?

Hes right that rehab works better than punishment on average for the crime committer themselves. Obviously certain people will never be rehabbed but more criminals will be successfully changed for the better than only using punishment.

Either way I never argued against that. Im arguing that punishment is a better deterrent to prevent future potential murderers and rapists that exist in the general population from committing crimes.

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TheOtherMike posted...

Both are factors. Regardless, this doesn't in any way suggest that punishment is itself a deterrent over rehabilitation.

Its a pretty well accepted theory because its based on deep psychological studies and basic logic on human behavior.

Deterrence theory works on these three key elements: certainty, celerity, and severity, in incremental steps.

https://openoregon.pressbooks.pub/ccj230/chapter/8-3-deterrence/

Basically as long as people are aware they can be caught, and that being caught has consequences, they will be less likely to do something wrong.


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TrevorLawrence posted...

Im arguing that punishment is a better deterrent to prevent future potential murderers and rapists that exist in the general population from committing crimes.

The fuck does this mean?

"I'm gonna get rehabilitated so I'm gonna take a human life" sure sounds like a fucking insane interpretation.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

Basically as long as people are aware they can be caught, and that being caught has consequences, they will be less likely to do something wrong.

Again:

TheOtherMike posted...

The fear of being "caught and punished" is still present in countries that rehabilitate their inmates.

Most rapist and murderers are so far off the deep end that they are beyond any help. It's better to just lock them away from the world.

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TrevorLawrence posted...

Idk who Kanjo is or why their posts suck but my posts aren't that bad >_>

dude are you really gonna do this again

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I cant see where we are punishing them at the prison i work at. We aint rehabilitating them either though. Basically we just make sure they dont escape kill and rape each other. Other than that we make them clean up after themselves somewhat

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