Current Events > Do you believe that toxic masculinity really is a problem?

(+) Yeah! (+)

do you

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While I feel the term is very poorly worded, the things it includes are very problematic.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

While I feel the term is very poorly worded, the things it includes are very problematic.

why do you feel it's very poorly worded?

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There are specific stereotypes and attitudes that are an issue, but I completely disagree with how the topic is packaged.

Oh hell yeah

IfGodCouldDie posted...

While I feel the term is very poorly worded, the things it includes are very problematic.

Why do they say all chemicals are toxic?

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Yeah, in some areas. Like violence, insecurity, power dynamics

In less important areas, sort of

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DoubleOSnake posted...

why do you feel it's very poorly worded?

Because many people misinterpret it as there being something wrong with masculinity, something wrong with being a man, or that things that are wrong in society are the fault of men. And instead of being open to hearing what it is about some men just get defensive because it makes them feel attacked.

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No

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I believe I got better shit to worry about

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hockeybub89 posted...

Oh hell yeah

Why do they say all chemicals are toxic?

What?

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Yes.

When you tell dudes to suppress to their emotions so they can fit the image of a real man.... do you really think that does any good?

ZannoL posted...

Yes.

When you tell dudes to suppress to their emotions so they can fit the image of a real man.... do you really think that does any good?

And people wonder why the suicide rate in men is so much higher than women.

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Hell yeah lol

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Of course it is, or I wouldn't have to see a dozen topics all about some guy complaining that some other guy wearing a dress for a photo shoot is devaluing his manhood.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

Because many people misinterpret it as there being something wrong with masculinity, something wrong with being a man, or that things that are wrong in society are the fault of men. And instead of being open to hearing what it is about some men just get defensive because it makes them feel attacked.

they dont misinterpret it by accident
they do it on purpose. you can explain what the term actually means and it wont matter as they will ignore that because they are not arguing in good faith

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Hayame Zero posted...

And people wonder why the suicide rate in men is so much higher than women.

Women get help. Men dont. Thats the difference.

Isn't that what causes male-pattern baldness?

Anyone remember conservatives saying "Masks aren't manly" also in a homophobic way too.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Because many people misinterpret it as there being something wrong with masculinity, something wrong with being a man, or that things that are wrong in society are the fault of men. And instead of being open to hearing what it is about some men just get defensive because it makes them feel attacked.

I'm less harsh on this point of view than I used to be, but I still see wilful misinterpretation most often.

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yusiko posted...

they dont misinterpret it by accident
they do it on purpose. you can explain what the term actually means and it wont matter as they will ignore that because they are not arguing in good faith

Some people, absolutely. I would never argue against that, but a lot of people hear something and make up their mind about it based solely on whatever rhetoric was used in that moment.
Evening_Dragon posted...

I'm less harsh on this point of view than I used to be, but I still see wilful misinterpretation most often.

If someone is willing to listen and make a legitimate attempt to understand what something means I won't fault them for it. If they aren't then fuck'em.

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Everything the God said.

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I think gender stereotypes in general are a problem.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

What?

If toxic masculinity is poorly worded, then so is putting toxic in front of anything. Toxic chemicals must mean all chemicals are toxic.

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hockeybub89 posted...

If toxic masculinity is poorly worded, then so is putting toxic in front of anything. Toxic chemicals must mean all chemicals are toxic.

The fuck are you talking about?

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

Because many people misinterpret it as there being something wrong with masculinity, something wrong with being a man, or that things that are wrong in society are the fault of men. And instead of being open to hearing what it is about some men just get defensive because it makes them feel attacked.

that's not a problem with the term. it would be misinterpreted regardless of what it was called

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averagejoel posted...

that's not a problem with the term. it would be misinterpreted regardless of what it was called

I disagree, because when people bring up "toxic femininity" they fail to realize that a lot of those things are included when talking about toxic masculinity. If the terminology was more gender neutral you'd be way less likely to have people instantly jumping into a defensive position over it.

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hockeybub89 posted...

If toxic masculinity is poorly worded, then so is putting toxic in front of anything. Toxic chemicals must mean all chemicals are toxic.

You're putting words in people's mouth

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

I disagree, because when people bring up "toxic femininity" they fail to realize that a lot of those things are included when talking about toxic masculinity. If the terminology was more gender neutral you'd be way less likely to have people instantly jumping into a defensive position over it.

yeah you make a good point, agree

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Oh yeah.

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I've seen enough men get wildly angry over the mere concept to say yes

Lokison posted...

You're putting words in people's mouth

They've been discussing people who misinterpret the word for a while now.

ZannoL posted...

When you tell dudes to suppress to their emotions so they can fit the image of a real man.... do you really think that does any good?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about promoting this idea in real life.

Only on the internet do I hear this claim made.

I mean, men openly cry at football games, lol

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Because many people misinterpret it as there being something wrong with masculinity, something wrong with being a man, or that things that are wrong in society are the fault of men. And instead of being open to hearing what it is about some men just get defensive because it makes them feel attacked.

Setting aside what qualities may or may not be toxic.

I think that is because it is almost never discussed alongside positive masculinity. Gender activists types may want to toss out masculine qualities they think are toxic, but rarely masculine qualities that are positive.

My suspicion has been that is because they don't want to associate positive qualities explicitly with masculinity, because they don't want to suggest men typically have positive traits that women don't.

RustyFerret posted...

I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about promoting this idea in real life.

I assume you were homeschooled in a utopian society by a pair of lesbians then?

(I'll stop being catty now)

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Pus_N_Pecans posted...

I assume you were homeschooled in a utopian society by a pair of lesbians then?

I think it's a regional thing. I haven't heard anything like that since the early aughts, but it seems like it's still prominent in more rural areas.

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toxic modernity is the ultimate problem

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Esrac posted...

I think that is because it is almost never discussed alongside positive masculinity. Gender activists types may want to toss out masculine qualities they think are toxic, but rarely masculine qualities that are positive.

My suspicion has been that is because they don't want to associate positive qualities explicitly with masculinity, because they don't want to suggest men typically have positive traits that women don't.

The very packaging is an issue. From the get go, it's unilaterally one sided. There is no "other side" to it. There is no opposite discussion. That is literally it. It's part of a framework which seeks to quantify all perceived negative aspects into a nice little package at the cost of overly-gendering certain negative traits held by everyone and asserting that normal traits are somehow bad. And the biggest issue is that it does include many actual issues, but anyone arguing against it is seen as arguing against all issues.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I disagree, because when people bring up "toxic femininity" they fail to realize that a lot of those things are included when talking about toxic masculinity. If the terminology was more gender neutral you'd be way less likely to have people instantly jumping into a defensive position over it.

I do not believe that. not for a second. I do not think that anyone who brings up "toxic femininity" in a conversation specifically centered on toxic masculinity is doing so in good faith, and I don't think this would be fixed by making the terminology more gender neutral

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I think looking at it in terms of "if there's bad masculinity then there must be GOOD masculinity" is an inaccurate way of framing it.

And honestly the idea that it's called "toxic" masculinity follows through in this case.

If there's "toxic masculinity", there would follow existing "non-toxic masculinity". Which is to say stuff that's not necessarily positive, but really just mostly neutral.

Like wearing pants.

Pants are a masculine article of clothing. I feel I wouldn't break any boundaries by suggesting that wearing pants is a non-toxic form of masculinity, but calling it "positive" is a stretch.

Like I'm not going to celebrate you for wearing pants and practicing "good" masculinity.

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Evening_Dragon posted...

I think it's a regional thing. I haven't heard anything like that since the early aughts, but it seems like it's still prominent in more rural areas.

I mean, I think most of us grew up in a time where people threw around "gay" as an insult in even the most casual of conversations.

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CyricZ posted...

I think looking at it in terms of "if there's bad masculinity then there must be GOOD masculinity" is an inaccurate way of framing it.

And honestly the idea that it's called "toxic" masculinity follows through in this case.

If there's "toxic masculinity", there would follow existing "non-toxic masculinity". Which is to say stuff that's not necessarily positive, but really just mostly neutral.

Like wearing pants.

Pants are a masculine article of clothing. I feel I wouldn't break any boundaries by suggesting that wearing pants is a non-toxic form of masculinity, but calling it "positive" is a stretch.

Like I'm not going to celebrate you for wearing pants and practicing "good" masculinity.

This sounds like a wordy attempt to say "There is no positive masculinity".

Esrac posted...

This sounds like a wordy attempt to say "There is no positive masculinity".

Does that trouble you?

I mean yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying.

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CyricZ posted...

Does that trouble you?

I think you're wrong, but I wouldn't say that troubles me.

Esrac posted...

I think you're wrong, but I wouldn't say that troubles me.

Okay, then what do you think are examples of positive masculinity?

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Esrac posted...

This sounds like a wordy attempt to say "There is no positive masculinity"

Cyric inclined me to believe that's true. The explanatory verbiage was necessary in my opinion.

CyricZ posted...

Okay, then what do you think are examples of positive masculinity?

Probably what you'd expect.

Assertiveness, confidence, protectiveness, competitiveness, etc.

Not everyone would agree, but I'd also think of a certain level of stoicism, risk taking, and appropriately channeled aggression and even, sometimes, violence are positive traits.

Those are typically traits people consider masculine.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Because many people misinterpret it as there being something wrong with masculinity, something wrong with being a man, or that things that are wrong in society are the fault of men. And instead of being open to hearing what it is about some men just get defensive because it makes them feel attacked.

Something isn't wrong just because idiots don't like it.

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Esrac posted...

violence

Yeah you're right that not everyone would agree.

But as you said earlier, could you suggest that these are qualities that could be "gendered"?

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CyricZ posted...

Yeah you're right that not everyone would agree.

But as you said earlier, could you suggest that these are qualities that could be "gendered"?

If we are going to qualify traits as masculine of feminine, yeah. Assuming we are going by the standard that the traits tend to be more often observed in one gender rather than the other.

That is, if you take men and women as separate groups and observe them, you'll probably find a traits tend to be observed more often in one group than the other. For example, you'll probably find that men, as a group, tend to be more assertive or engage in riskier behavior. So, since those happen to be more common traits in men, we consider them masculine traits.

That doesn't mean individual women are incapable of displaying masculine traits or individual men incapable of feminine traits.

And if you dont think an appropriately applied capacity for violence can be a positive trait, I suspect we will have a fundamental, possibly irreconcilable disagreement.