Board 8 > Stormlight Archive: Rhythm of War has arrived!

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Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4
NFUN
11/25/20 11:44:41 PM
#51:


3 > 4 > 1 > 2

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN too good. I'd probably put 1 last but Bridge Four is some of the best of what the series has to offer

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CassandraCain
11/26/20 12:16:29 PM
#52:


Who the heck would rank WoR last

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CoolCly
11/26/20 12:44:52 PM
#53:


I put it lower in my tier list I posted earlier too, because I just whipped it up based on impressions that came to mind right away, and my strongest impressions of the Stormlight Archive are without question Kaladins bridge running in The Way of Kings and Dalinar's arc in Oathbringer. That's god tier stuff. I couldn't actually remember anything that happened in Words of Radiance. There's not much from that book that I'm not completely certain might have happened in Way of Kings or Oathbringer....

But reflecting on it later, I actually am pretty sure I thought Words of Radiance was much better than Way of Kings in general at the time.

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NFUN
11/26/20 12:46:43 PM
#54:


CassandraCain posted...
Who the heck would rank WoR last
NFUN

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/26/20 1:00:08 PM
#55:


WoR does a lot of heavy lifting on the character front since both Kalladin and Shallan have super satisfying arcs in it. A lot of the personality of the series starts being on full display here. Shallan especially goes from a snarky excuse for exposition dumps in book 1 to an actual character in book 2. Adolin also stops being a total fuckboi and starts coming into his own. Dalinar is the only one without a ton of development and that's because he gets such great arcs in books 1 and 3.

The standout moments for me are the duel and the anime as FUCK final battles. The first fight against Szeth is pretty good too.

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/26/20 1:20:35 PM
#56:


Oh and for that matter the worldbuilding improves substantially in WoR. Stormlight as a series involves tearing down or playing with a bunch of outdated fantasy tropes but TWoK has to do the setup by playing it all straight, with only a hint of self-awareness. Book 2 is where he starts the actual work.

Ending book 1 on the twist that "the slaves were the evil voidbringers all along!" is a HUGE fucking yikes, for instance, which in book 2 Sanderson takes a sledgehammer to with the Eshonai interludes

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MikeTavish
11/26/20 7:08:17 PM
#57:


@HeroDelTiempo17 Might wanna spoiler tag that stuff.

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ExThaNemesis
11/27/20 3:24:04 AM
#58:


Oh my god the chapter interludes where Navani talks about what different metals do to the spren in the fabrials.

My face when I realized the correlation

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CassandraCain
11/27/20 10:27:51 AM
#59:


Looks like I'm joining the Kindle club. Thought I wanted to stick with traditional physical copies but after reading Dawnshard on my phone it has occurred to me that it's much more convenient and comfortable. It's tough to find a good reading position when handling a 20 pound book. Plus I don't mind spending extra money on Sanderson's work, I'll still likely get the physicals just to have them.

Maybe I'll switch back and forth I dunno

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Yankees
11/27/20 11:46:31 AM
#60:


I'm mostly kindle these days, but I get physical copies of the Stormlight books. I never liked reading on the phone although the paperwhite is nice

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CassandraCain
11/27/20 1:37:58 PM
#61:


Yeah the paperwhite is what I just ordered, not about to read an entire book on my phone.

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CoolCly
11/27/20 2:05:58 PM
#62:


This is a bit of tangent, but I've been thinking about getting an ereader for a while now, not out of preference but due to the cost and logistics of storing all the books I have. Paperbacks are $10-25 and hardcovers are usually $25-50, and take up a lot of space. I either have boxes, bookshelves full of them, or even a pile of books in a corner. I have a lot of books I want to read, and physically buying them all just doesn't seem feasible. Libraries don't interest me much since I hate reading on a deadline. I enjoy having my own "library" of sorts but I think the reality is that I can't keep a physical copy of every book I read, maybe just the ones I really like.

So an ereader seems like a good option. Much cheaper per book and takes up no physical space. I can pick up books on sale to read sometime down the line very easily too.

I vaguely know "Kindle" is basically synonymous with ereader, but does that make them the best game in town? Is there model differences? How long before Ereaders "age out" and you need a newer up to date one?

I'm also concerned about compatibility. I've heard some ereaders can only read books from their own first party library. I'd want something that can read it no mattter where I acquired it from, whether its just a pdf i have or bought on amazon or from the native app on the ereader. How does that work?

I don't think I'd start using it for like a year since I have such a physical backlog of books, but I'd like to start picking up ebooks that I'm interested to see later. I'm concerned it won't be compatible with the ereader I get though... but if I buy it now before I even expect to use it it'll just age out sooner.

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Leatrice
11/27/20 2:16:45 PM
#63:


I love the Kobo. I'm pretty sure Indigo is Canada's only bookstore so that worked out. Kindle has a shit ton of DRM. Kobo you can pop on any damn thing you want. I have a Libra h20 and it's super snazzy. I got it because it was the best for reading manga, and it really is. Currently they're $20-$30 off for black Friday etc. It also has integration with overdrive, which lets you get ebooks from libraries but I have not learned what that means or how it works. I just spend all my money on books and go bankrupt.


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Mac Arrowny
11/27/20 2:50:23 PM
#64:


CoolCly posted...
How long before Ereaders "age out" and you need a newer up to date one?


A very long time, currently. This isn't something you'll have to worry about.

CoolCly posted...

I'm also concerned about compatibility. I've heard some ereaders can only read books from their own first party library. I'd want something that can read it no mattter where I acquired it from, whether its just a pdf i have or bought on amazon or from the native app on the ereader. How does that work?


Then you don't want a Kindle. Kobo is a better option, but I think you'll have to buy from their digital store rather than Amazon's.

The PC'll do conversion between types too, using software like Calibre. That's how I read non-compatible books on my Kindle.

Reading PDFs on Kindle isn't necessarily a great experience due to screen size.
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HeroDelTiempo17
11/27/20 7:14:51 PM
#65:


Book beated.

Holy shit, Sanderson. I'm so mad I have to wait another 3 years for the next book.

(COSMERE SPOILERS)
Though I guess we should be getting at least some answers in the next Mistborn book, huh? STORMING KELSIER

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/27/20 7:55:18 PM
#66:


Yankees posted...
I don't remember that specific name, but Lord of Scars does seem like a clear indication for him coupled with the fact that Wit threatens to kick his ass again. It's been a long time since I've read the series so I could have forgotten. Anyway, we do have this...

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3585

Yelled at this. Fuck you, Sanderson.

Yankees posted...
I didn't catch much more on the whole Dalinar/Unity thing. It was great to see him connect Kaladin to Tien in the spiritual realm. It was interesting that Kaladin's fourth ideal was not accepted by the Stormfather, but by someone else who sounded familiar. Unity? Tanavast? There must be something to the Stormfather referring to Kaladin as Child of Tanavast when he refers to others as Children of Honor instead.

Dunno if you realized this yet, but this was Dalinar himself. He was set up earlier as being able to speak as the storm and override the Stormfather the first time he rode as it. And while Kaladin didn't seem to make the connection (likely, Dalinar doesn't sound exactly like himself), Dalinar himself confirms he was the one speaking to accept the Words in his next POV chapter. It's pretty obviously setting Dalinar up to inherit Honor's power directly though his bond, as the Stormfather keeps expressing how his powers seem to go beyond that of a normal Bondsmith. But I do agree the things specific to Kaladin seems significant too, and there's likely something else at play here. It could go either way.

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NFUN
11/27/20 8:03:00 PM
#67:


I already want to reread SA gdi. I'll just reread the much shorter Wax books instead

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Yankees
11/27/20 8:11:51 PM
#68:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Yelled at this. Fuck you, Sanderson.

Dunno if you realized this yet, but this was Dalinar himself. He was set up earlier as being able to speak as the storm and override the Stormfather the first time he rode as it. And while Kaladin didn't seem to make the connection (likely, Dalinar doesn't sound exactly like himself), Dalinar himself confirms he was the one speaking to accept the Words in his next POV chapter. It's pretty obviously setting Dalinar up to inherit Honor's power directly though his bond, as the Stormfather keeps expressing how his powers seem to go beyond that of a normal Bondsmith. But I do agree the things specific to Kaladin seems significant too, and there's likely something else at play here. It could go either way.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted it and went back to reread. And yes, it's been moving towards Dalinar inheriting Honor's power for sometime now. It's interesting that Cultivation has directly intervened with three characters we know of...Taravangian has assumed Odium, and Dalinar may inherit Honor. Lift hasn't been super important yet, but I wonder what Cultivation plans for her. Possibly replacing herself? We know she had a relationship with Tanavast, but not a whole lot more.

The son of Tanavast thing is going to be significant for something, I'm sure. looking forward to seeing why that is.

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/27/20 8:12:57 PM
#69:


More musings:

So with Taravangian's Ascension and the reveal that this was being planned by Cultivation, and the heavy implication that Dalinar has been set up in the same way to eventually take over for Honor...does this mean that Cultivation is planning for fucking LIFT to take over for her? Those are the only three people we know of that she personally gave boons to, and while I doubt they will all work out in the most straightforward manner...I mean, that is the simplest explanation. And it makes sense with her Intent - culling the old gods so that new ones can grow.

I absolutely love Taravangian becoming Odium, by the way. A lot of people seemed bummed that his involvement in Oathbringer ended so anticlimactically for such a hyped up and interesting villain, but I was still holding out hope he'd have major involvement due to being chosen by Cultivation. But I would have NEVER expected it to be this massive.

lol I guess we're both on the same track here

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NFUN
11/27/20 8:16:32 PM
#70:


long live todd

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Yankees
11/27/20 8:18:35 PM
#71:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
More musings:

So with Taravangian's Ascension and the reveal that this was being planned by Cultivation, and the heavy implication that Dalinar has been set up in the same way to eventually take over for Honor...does this mean that Cultivation is planning for fucking LIFT to take over for her? Those are the only three people we know of that she personally gave boons to, and while I doubt they will all work out in the most straightforward manner...I mean, that is the simplest explanation. And it makes sense with her Intent - culling the old gods so that new ones can grow.

I absolutely love Taravangian becoming Odium, by the way. A lot of people seemed bummed that his involvement in Oathbringer ended so anticlimactically for such a hyped up and interesting villain, but I was still holding out hope he'd have major involvement due to being chosen by Cultivation. But I would have NEVER expected it to be this massive.

lol I guess we're both on the same track here

The more I think about it, I really like Taravangian's ascension. All the elaborate Diagram planning just to save a city was a letdown. I was a disappointing that that appeared to be his endgame in Oathbringer. But this is great.

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/27/20 10:33:12 PM
#72:


Yankees posted...
The more I think about it, I really like Taravangian's ascension. All the elaborate Diagram planning just to save a city was a letdown. I was a disappointing that that appeared to be his endgame in Oathbringer. But this is great.

Yes, it made sense for Smart Taravangian when we were assuming that Rayse/Odium's goal was to wipe out humanity entirely, although we now know that wasn't the plan. I was certain that Taravangian's actual endgame would have to rely on his "stupid" self and not be so obvious, but I had no idea what that would look like. But it the end, it all fit together so perfectly.

To be honest, Rayse was quickly becoming the one of the weakest part of the series, so this works out. Harmony's letter mentioning the lack of distinction between the Vessel and the Shard was starting to solidify that to me, by implying Rayse was more or less completely under control of the Shard. He was starting to become too similar to Ruin.

Since the gradual insanity of Cognitive Shadows (which the Vessels are) is such a major theme in this book, it's making me wonder. Obviously this seems to be Kelsier's primary motivation and also a major part of the Heralds/Fused/Szeth on Roshar proper. But maybe this is also Cultivation's goal - sidestepping this issue by replacing the Vessels, letting them have more control over the Shard. Maybe even going as far as being involved in Tanavast's death? I'm also thinking of Autonomy, who as far as I understand seems to have split herself (themself?) across multiple avatars. And maybe that's a different solution that lets them exert more Autonomy over the Intent of the Shard itself.

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ExThaNemesis
11/27/20 11:09:20 PM
#73:


I am eating this book up too fast. I should try and go slower because I know how painful the wait for 5 is gonna be

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Yankees
11/27/20 11:23:58 PM
#74:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Yes, it made sense for Smart Taravangian when we were assuming that Rayse/Odium's goal was to wipe out humanity entirely, although we now know that wasn't the plan. I was certain that Taravangian's actual endgame would have to rely on his "stupid" self and not be so obvious, but I had no idea what that would look like. But it the end, it all fit together so perfectly.

To be honest, Rayse was quickly becoming the one of the weakest part of the series, so this works out. Harmony's letter mentioning the lack of distinction between the Vessel and the Shard was starting to solidify that to me, by implying Rayse was more or less completely under control of the Shard. He was starting to become too similar to Ruin.

Since the gradual insanity of Cognitive Shadows (which the Vessels are) is such a major theme in this book, it's making me wonder. Obviously this seems to be Kelsier's primary motivation and also a major part of the Heralds/Fused/Szeth on Roshar proper. But maybe this is also Cultivation's goal - sidestepping this issue by replacing the Vessels, letting them have more control over the Shard. Maybe even going as far as being involved in Tanavast's death? I'm also thinking of Autonomy, who as far as I understand seems to have split herself (themself?) across multiple avatars. And maybe that's a different solution that lets them exert more Autonomy over the Intent of the Shard itself.

I had long suspected that dumb Taravangian would come through too, but wasn't expecting this. Dalinar and him did not receive a boon/bane in the traditional sense, and I like how that played out for them. Gives me something to look forward to with Lift.

There is this answer from Brandon that goes against the theory of Cultivation helping. It might be that Honor made himself vulnerable to Odium by breaking some agreement. They've made it pretty clear that they can break oaths, but there are consequences. I don't know much about Autonomy, but there's something to Cultivation grooming new shard vessels. That should be consistent with the shard's intent, and Rayse was not a man in control.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/97-idaho-falls-signing/#e2729

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NFUN
11/27/20 11:52:54 PM
#75:


I've been skimming through wobs and holy shit

WoR https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224-words-of-radiance-san-francisco-signing/#e7159

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/28/20 12:52:27 AM
#76:


Yankees posted...


There is this answer from Brandon that goes against the theory of Cultivation helping. It might be that Honor made himself vulnerable to Odium by breaking some agreement. They've made it pretty clear that they can break oaths, but there are consequences. I don't know much about Autonomy, but there's something to Cultivation grooming new shard vessels. That should be consistent with the shard's intent, and Rayse was not a man in control.


I'm thinking more along the lines of, while Honor and Cultivation were allied against Odium, when Tanavast started breaking down towards the end of his life, it would be consistent for Cultivation to assist with a mercy killing. It's admittedly a stretch since we know Odium is responsible for the bulk of it, but there's still a lot of unknowns.

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Yankees
11/28/20 1:37:04 AM
#77:


Oh, that certainly sounds possible.

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CoolCly
11/29/20 3:54:30 PM
#78:


Oh man, Chapter 10 spoilers

Kaladin has been relieved of duty due to his depression making him too much of a liability. We've been dancing around this the entire series, and it's been especially blatant so far this book, but wow this is a step I didn't think Brandon would take. This is possibly more devastating to Kaladin than actually freezing up and allowing somebody to die on the battlefield, which is what I expected to eventually happen. I'm sure there'll be a rebound arc as he "gets through it" and returns to action in a critical moment but I love this.

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CassandraCain
11/30/20 1:23:24 PM
#79:


It's sometimes ridiculous to me just how much I relate with Kaladin. Ridiculous in a good way, he's my favorite character for a reason.

Just finished part 1, am I the only one that gets super excited for the interludes? They always seem to have the most interesting tidbits.

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/30/20 1:46:39 PM
#80:


Nope, the interludes have been one of my favorite things about the series from the start. There is so much personality and worldbuilding crammed into them. In fact, I kind of miss the style of interludes from the first two books, where they felt a lot more like varied vignettes from around the world that really filled it in. Though, it's still very cool to get alternate perspectives on the main plot or for interlude characters to get "promoted," resulting in stuff like Dawnshard which is just a great read.

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ExThaNemesis
11/30/20 2:45:53 PM
#81:


Just read the Kaladin chapter where he faces Zahel. Great scene. It's impressive that Zahel can use Breath so capably despite being away from Nalthis. Did they explain that? Or is he just that strong/has that much Breath that he's able to do these things.

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Mac Arrowny
11/30/20 2:47:22 PM
#82:


Some forms of Investiture/Magic transfer more easily between planets in the Cosmere, Breath being one of them.
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ExThaNemesis
11/30/20 3:13:10 PM
#83:


Doesn't it mostly matter how far apart the planets are? Like Nalthis is relatively close to the Roshar system if I'm not mistaken.

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NFUN
11/30/20 3:19:56 PM
#84:


ExThaNemesis posted...
Doesn't it mostly matter how far apart the planets are? Like Nalthis is relatively close to the Roshar system if I'm not mistaken.
Doubt that'd matter at all. You're still very firmly in a *different* place. Being a lightyear away or a hundred shouldn't matter in terms of Connection if you're in a completely different solar system. Kelsier in SH couldn't leave Scadrial at all; the destination was irrelevant

I'd imagine Breaths are extremely portable*, but it'd be the fact Vasher is a Returned and a Cognitive Shadow would prove the larger issue, and he'd have to figure out some way to get around that to leave the system in the first place

*I don't think this kind of Connection matters in general for the magic itself. Dor would be impossible to use offworld without the Ire's pipes or whatever because it's a localized system. Aviar I assume work offworld fine. Sand at least works somewhat, and I bet it'd work fine. Metallic Arts would definitely work fine. Awakening, we've seen, work fine. Stormlight you can carry no problem; it'd just be the spren that are bound to the system that'd be problematic

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/30/20 3:59:41 PM
#85:


Minor correction - Stormlight itself is apparently bound to the Rosharan system. It's a significant detail in the plot. (Part 1 spoilers) Mraise mentions when explaining the mechanics to Shallan that Investiture is Connected to its homeworld, and it makes transporting Stormlight an issue. Although, he also says he knows how to get around it, his actual problem is there's still something preventing the Ghostbloods from transporting it easily. Whatever it is can't be much of a secret with how many heavily Invested worldhoppers are out there.

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CassandraCain
11/30/20 5:01:17 PM
#86:


I assumed it has something to do with Stormlight evaporating on its own, hence the constant need for it to be renewed. Whereas Breaths are only depleted if you use them (if I remember correctly), and Vasher probably still has a ton.

Can't recall myself, was there any hint of Vivenna using them? She likely wouldn't have as much to waste.

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HeroDelTiempo17
11/30/20 5:07:38 PM
#87:


Without spoilers, that is addressed and is also not the issue

For your second question I can't remember that either but I DO know that Hoid uses Awakening in Oathbringer, and I can't imagine he has a huge amount to spare either.

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NFUN
11/30/20 5:24:54 PM
#88:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Minor correction - Stormlight itself is apparently bound to the Rosharan system. It's a significant detail in the plot. (Part 1 spoilers) Mraise mentions when explaining the mechanics to Shallan that Investiture is Connected to its homeworld, and it makes transporting Stormlight an issue. Although, he also says he knows how to get around it, his actual problem is there's still something preventing the Ghostbloods from transporting it easily. Whatever it is can't be much of a secret with how many heavily Invested worldhoppers are out there.
You're right

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tcaz2
12/01/20 10:47:22 AM
#89:


CassandraCain posted...
Can't recall myself, was there any hint of Vivenna using them? She likely wouldn't have as much to waste.

Oathbringer: Yes, when she splits up from the group in Shadesmar she prepares to fight the fused chasing them to buy them time by asking the Honorspren on the boat to prepare bundles of cloth.

I'm actually reading RoW now having finished my rereads and Dawnshard. Not done with part 1 yet, but its been pretty interesting so far. It does feel a little... off to me for some reason I'm not quite sure of, but I do appreciate what the book is doing so far with connecting Roshar more to the rest of the Cosmere series.
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CoolCly
12/03/20 12:18:22 AM
#90:


I still don't like Venli. I thought after what happened to the Listeners, because of her, there would be a change here....

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tcaz2
12/04/20 4:20:15 AM
#91:


So I'm in part 2, at the part where the Shadesmar expedition just got off the boat to resupply, and Shallan contacted Mraize and found out Beryl is the spy.

But I'm going to make a prediction that not only is this a misdirect, ALL of the humans are a misdirect,and the spy is actually one of the spren somehow. No idea how they'd have off'd Ialai, though.
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HeroDelTiempo17
12/04/20 5:15:22 AM
#92:


Venli is great. She's very flawed but I think she's interesting and shows a lot of nuance

Full book spoilers
My only complaint is that despite it being her focus book it still feels like her arc was mostly setup (admittedly, good setup) for later. Her main struggle was internal and her main impact was convincing Lewshi and Rlain to take action. Those two are also very good characters so I'm fine with that to an extent, but Venli kinda got upstaged by most of the cast around her, especially Navani.

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CassandraCain
12/04/20 10:46:50 AM
#93:


tcaz2 posted...
So I'm in part 2, at the part where

I'm just a little further than you, but I had that same prediction. No way would it be that easy.

Except I suspected it was Formless that was acting without the other three knowing about it. I still have yet to find out for sure.

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CoolCly
12/04/20 11:03:28 AM
#94:


I'm at the same place in part 2! I'm gonna make my prediction then read your predictions

Beryl may be an agent, but she's not the spy. Formless is the spy. Shallan is the spy.

OK now to read your predictions.. Looks like me and tcaz are in different boats.... but CassandraCain and I are on the same page!! high five!.


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Mac Arrowny
12/04/20 11:06:04 AM
#95:


I thought modern-day Venli stuff was solid, but the flashbacks were probably the worst of the four books. There were some interesting tidbits in there, but mostly it was stuff we already knew, and it was particularly emotionally powerful (I liked the Eshonai flashbacks more than the Venli ones also).
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CoolCly
12/04/20 11:06:50 AM
#96:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Venli is great. She's very flawed but I think she's interesting and shows a lot of nuance


she's just so insufferable! Especially her views on humans being just a one dimensional "man they suck and we can't trust em!" and the way she talks down to her little cult allies when they at all question her (complete lack of a) plan. After all the damage her hubris caused the Listeners (literal extinction), she still hasn't learned a damn thing. She's still just doing her own egotistical Venli thing. I really wish Eshonai or Rlain or someone else was our singer main.

Will come back to read your spoilers some day.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
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CassandraCain
12/04/20 12:49:42 PM
#97:


If there's one thing I know about Sanderson's characters, they act like real people. Venli might suck right now but she'll grow and change into someone better (probably same with Moash)

Shallan is a good example too

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I don't kill... but I don't lose either.
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CoolCly
12/04/20 1:27:46 PM
#98:


Yeah but this should be the part that she's changing into someone that I like!!

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
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HeroDelTiempo17
12/04/20 1:47:53 PM
#99:


CoolCly posted...
she's just so insufferable! Especially her views on humans being just a one dimensional "man they suck and we can't trust em!" and the way she talks down to her little cult allies when they at all question her (complete lack of a) plan. After all the damage her hubris caused the Listeners (literal extinction), she still hasn't learned a damn thing. She's still just doing her own egotistical Venli thing. I really wish Eshonai or Rlain or someone else was our singer main.

Will come back to read your spoilers some day.

Well I'll keep it to the part you're at

I disagree with your assessment that Venli's stance is one-dimensional. Even early on in her first two chapters I was really impressed by the nuance being shown. Venli is right, the humans and Fused DO both suck. She has little reason to trust any of them! But when her followers point out her plan to fuck off from the war and reform the listeners has some issues, I was immediately impressed she admitted to herself that they were right even if outwardly she didn't know what to do about it. It's less egotism because she is consciously checking it and is aware if her past mistakes, but she is torn because of the very real need for self-preservation while having to rebuild a separatist group and her entire culture from scratch. She is pretty different tonally from everyone else at this point of the story and I can see how that could be grating but I loved it.

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CoolCly
12/06/20 3:04:42 AM
#100:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Well I'll keep it to the part you're at

I disagree with your assessment that Venli's stance is one-dimensional. Even early on in her first two chapters I was really impressed by the nuance being shown. Venli is right, the humans and Fused DO both suck. She has little reason to trust any of them! But when her followers point out her plan to fuck off from the war and reform the listeners has some issues, I was immediately impressed she admitted to herself that they were right even if outwardly she didn't know what to do about it. It's less egotism because she is consciously checking it and is aware if her past mistakes, but she is torn because of the very real need for self-preservation while having to rebuild a separatist group and her entire culture from scratch. She is pretty different tonally from everyone else at this point of the story and I can see how that could be grating but I loved it.


It is completely one dimensional. It's not taking any sort of profound "actually humans do bad things in this world" kind of stance, it's just Venli's typical "i know what's best and refuse to reconsider my positions" attitude. It's exactly what she was always like with her scientific pursuits unlocking new forms and pushing the Parshendi along. If she'd slowed down even a second to listen to Eshonai or anyone else's concerns, she might not have literally killed her entire race, including her sister. That's the entire tragic point of her character. After all, she doesn't "just happen" to be the Last Listener because she happened to survive by chance. That's Rlain. She actively created the destruction that happened, and now has to move on with the burden of what she's done. But here she is - still pigheaded in her own egotistical ideas. She admitted to herself her followers were right that she has no plan? Of course they were right - Venli has no idea what she's doing. But STILL she presents this "I know whats best and you have to listen to me and trust what I tell you is right" front to her followers, without deigning to listen to what they have to say. In fact, she even disdains her Singer followers for adopting human traditions like marrying eachother. She's failed to progress AT ALL from the extremely damning character flaws that led her down her previous path. I don't think she has grown. I do not respect her intelligence. I do not root for her to succeed. I think she SHOULD fail in her goals. The only thing she has going for her is that she's undermining her clearly evil bosses in the Fused and Odium, and is on the side of a clearly sympathetic people, which are the regular singers trying to find their place in the world, while being in the opposite faction from all our other "good guys". I think that's a phenomenal place to put an interesting point of view character. But her goal isn't to help them the best way she can. It's just to create the ideal singer lifestyle that *she* envisions, regardless of what they actually want.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
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