Poll of the Day > Month of the Ogre 2: What's the deal with tactically similar units in RTS?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I know there's unit costs to consider, but sometimes that's not the limiting factor.

By tactically similar units, I mean units that are tactically similar (this has been English with Lok)... .... .... ok, take Starcraft for example. The humble Marine and the Goliath are tactically similar. The Goliath is a little more pricey for more damage and hits air units a bit better, but they otherwise wholly overlap.

In the context of Ogre Battle. You can raise your fighter into either a Knight, Samurai or Wild Man (Knight, Fencer, Berserker) which then upgrade into Paladin, Master and Evil One (Black Knight). There are some basic differences, Paladin can heal in the back row (but don't), Samurai has a cool windslash back row attack and Evil One has a mild Evil Spell in the back row... but that's not the deal, these guys get POWERFUL front row attacks. And in the case of MotBQ, the Paladin has a third front row attack... so it's pretty much automatically superior.

Basically, at their optimum they are front row force multipliers. So, why use one over the other?

Well, there's a few minor things. First is Alignment. In Ogre Battle high ALI units attack best at noon and low ALI units attack best at midnight, with medium ALI units attacking best at dusk/dawn, with a lesser penalty at noon/night. But since you are pretty much the sole arbiter of WHEN battles occur, you could technically always only fight at day or night. Furthermore, there are some very powerful units that only work at night such as vampires and werewolves. Lastly, your reputation gains are based on how high your ALI is when you take a town (Capture or Liberation). OB64 adjusted this a little bit by having low ALI towns that needed chaotic units to liberate them, but that's not in the original.

So, why pick anything OTHER than Paladin given all the advantages they have? They're pricey, but cheaper than the other T3 warriors; they have high ALI with is almost always a benefit, and they perform the melee force multiplier role the best.

...

Well, there's another system in place. If you kill high ALI units your ALI will drop, if you kill low ALI units your ALI will raise. but here's the thing, if you are already 90 ALI and you slay a very pious virgin priest who has 85 ALI, "Congrats!" you technically killed a "low" ALI unit and your ALI raises! Because of this, teams will typically hover near a medium ALI until they reach a breakpoint in either direction where they will rapidly and almost incorrectably get stuck at either 0 or 100 ALI.... .... WAIT, that's just another reason to pick Paladins!!!

Paladin Battle: March of the Black Paladin

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Noon-ish bump

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Lokarin posted...

So, why use one over the other?

Well idk about MotBQ but in 64 you need low alignment units to capture strongholds with the low number thingy so you can get CF points for better endings, or low cf to get certain units, EVEN THOUGH the game does not explain any of this shit to you!

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darcandkharg31 posted...

Well idk about MotBQ but in 64 you need low alignment units to capture strongholds with the low number thingy so you can get CF points for better endings, or low cf to get certain units, EVEN THOUGH the game does not explain any of this shit to you!

Yup, I mentioned this - but typically I'm referring to strategy games across the board that don't have a strict Rock/Paper/Scissors setup

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Ok, as an aside I can't seem to post properly 'cuz of some weird glitchy Bad Gateway and script crap...

So, basically:

Anyone want a Dota Battle Pass? Givin' away 5 of them

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Lokarin posted...

The humble Marine and the Goliath are tactically similar. The Goliath is a little more pricey for more damage and hits air units a bit better, but they otherwise wholly overlap.

no... there's all kinds of subtle differences there.

to sum it up quickly, marines are low-tier but general-purpose; goliaths are a middle-tier hard-counter to air.

Lokarin posted...

So, why use one over the other?

yes, alignment. it's more like you're comparing marines to hydralisks and dragoons/stalkers than to goliaths. they're roughly the same because they're the same unit in three separate "factions".

Lokarin posted...

So, why pick anything OTHER than Paladin given all the advantages they have? They're pricey, but cheaper than the other T3 warriors; they have high ALI with is almost always a benefit, and they perform the melee force multiplier role the best.

the idea in SNES Ogre Battle, I think, is that it's easy to be evil and hard to be good. and when trying to be good, you don't *want* to annihilate the enemy. IIRC that was a thing with Paladins is that they were very strong melee, but you had to be careful because if you just slaughter the enemy with them you'll lose your ALI.
Lokarin posted...

If you kill high ALI units your ALI will drop, if you kill low ALI units your ALI will raise. but here's the thing, if you are already 90 ALI and you slay a very pious virgin priest who has 85 ALI, "Congrats!" you technically killed a "low" ALI unit and your ALI raises!

IIRC it's not just ALI comparison but level comparison. you have to be careful not to kill units that are lower level than you, and it's really easy to just mow down everything with your paladins. that's something you're supposed to be _avoiding_ when playing good.

I can't remember for sure, but if you aren't paying attention you can slaughter your way through a few maps and your ALI will have dropped to the 30s or lower. I *think* you don't lose your class ever, but you can have an army of holy units with low ALI and start losing rep like mad if you aren't being careful.

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Sahuagin posted...

IIRC it's not just ALI comparison but level comparison. you have to be careful not to kill units that are lower level than you, and it's really easy to just mow down everything with your paladins. that's something you're supposed to be _avoiding_ when playing good.

Level comparison does come into play, but in original MotBQ it really do be that way. OB64 fixes almost all these issues.

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Lokarin posted...

Level comparison does come into play, but in original MotBQ it really do be that way. OB64 fixes almost all these issues.

it really do be what way? all I know of Ogre Battle is MotBQ.

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darcandkharg31 posted...

EVEN THOUGH the game does not explain any of this shit to you!

everyone says this, but I knew about it before the internet. I'm pretty sure it's explained in the manual.

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Sahuagin posted...

no... there's all kinds of subtle differences there.

to sum it up quickly, marines are low-tier but general-purpose; goliaths are a middle-tier hard-counter to air.

Ya, there's subtle differences - another being marines can be medic-healed, goliaths can be repaired, they upgrade differently (infantry/vehicle split) and such...

They don't fill identical roles, only similar roles.

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Lokarin posted...

They don't fill identical roles, only similar roles.

Lokarin posted...

The Goliath is a little more pricey for more damage and hits air units a bit better, but they otherwise wholly overlap.

you're saying here that they "wholly overlap", when really they only partly overlap. they both provide anti-air, but in pretty different ways. goliaths primarily defend you against all forms of air. marines defend you against low-tech air, but also have a bazillion other uses as one of the most versatile units in the game.

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Sahuagin posted...

you're saying here that they "wholly overlap", when really they only partly overlap. they both provide anti-air, but in pretty different ways. goliaths primarily defend you against all forms of air. marines defend you against low-tech air, but also have a bazillion other uses as one of the most versatile units in the game.

That was kinda unfortunate wording on my part for hyperbole

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Lokarin posted...

That was kinda unfortunate wording on my part for hyperbole

well wasn't that the crux of what you were saying? why have units that are just stronger versions of weaker units. it might be a good question but marine and goliath doesn't seem like a great example. goliaths don't make marines obsolete.

I'm curious about this though:

Sahuagin posted...

IIRC it's not just ALI comparison but level comparison. you have to be careful not to kill units that are lower level than you, and it's really easy to just mow down everything with your paladins. that's something you're supposed to be _avoiding_ when playing good.

I can't remember for sure, but if you aren't paying attention you can slaughter your way through a few maps and your ALI will have dropped to the 30s or lower. I *think* you don't lose your class ever, but you can have an army of holy units with low ALI and start losing rep like mad if you aren't being careful.

I vaguely recall having a conversation like this before. since you're playing the game right now, you have access to the real thing, when I'm relying on 25 year old memories.

do you know, is it how I remember it here? do you actually have to be careful not to slaughter lower level enemies? or is ALI comparison so much more important that it doesn't matter?

another question might be, by the way, how are you able to play this? do you own the cartridge?

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I don't own the MBQ cart, just the OB64 cart - I don't rom things so I'm not playing it. I am watching a few Let's Plays and reading the RPGShrine

You do sort of have to be careful to not slaughter low level enemies, unless being a chaotic unit of course - but it's a little underplayed. Typically there are 3 things that affect ALI - the type of enemy unit, the level of enemy unit and the ALI of the enemy unit (and in OB64 there's also a compatability system so your unit will naturally average out its members).

But, if you are a 98 ALI Paladin and you say a very low level 95 ALI priest... your ALI will remain unchanged. Priests have an ALI penalty (as a class), and your level is higher so it should go down, but because your ALI is already higher than that priest it will typically even out, leaving you neutral.

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