Current Events > Wow I really got blocked for saying transition surgery is an elective procedure.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Not all women have boobs tho

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Makeveli_lives posted...

Never said that lol.

It's amazing that people think not marching along to the beat is equivocal to standing in the way of the march towards progress.

Then why'd you refuse to say otherwise?

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Makeveli_lives posted...

Never said that lol.

It's amazing that people think not marching along to the beat is equivocal to standing in the way of the march towards progress.

If you can't answer the question "do you believe that trans people choose to be trans" by saying "no" then yes, you did say it.

Makeveli_lives posted...

Never said that lol.

It's amazing that people think not marching along to the beat is equivocal to standing in the way of the march towards progress.

Let me just say this: Stop responding to this thread for your own good. This is the stage of online arguments where people are trying to force words into your mouth in an attempt to pressure you into digging a hole. They don't care about your side of the argument, they just want to prove their side right.

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Yeah you're the depression expert gun..

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gunplagirl posted...

Then why'd you refuse to say otherwise?

Because this isn't a black and white issue. There are layers to this shit and I don't know where I stand. I agree on some aspects from some people, disagree with some on others.

This movement will go wherever it will go and I'm not out here impeding progress or protesting against it. But I'm not about to pick what should or should not be accepted as it isn't my movement or community and thus its not my place to say where this movement should end.

Tenlaar posted...

If you can't answer the question "do you believe that trans people choose to be trans" by saying "no" then yes, you did say it.

The whole "if you're not with me your against me" mentality isn't helping anybody fam lol

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gsninja posted...

Let me just say this: Stop responding to this thread for your own good. This is the stage of online arguments where people are trying to force words into your mouth in an attempt to pressure you into digging a hole. They don't care about your side of the argument, they just want to prove their side right.

Nobody forced him to be unable to answer the question "do you believe that trans people choose to be trans" with "no."

Makeveli_lives posted...

The whole "if you're not with me your against me" mentality isn't helping anybody fam lol

That's not even what this is about, this is about you refusing to acknowledge the stance that you are taking. Do you believe trans people choose to be trans is a yes or no question, if your answer is not no then it is some form of yes.

Makeveli_lives posted...

Because this isn't a black and white issue. There are layers to this shit and I don't know where I stand. I agree on some aspects from some people, disagree with some on others.

You don't have to understand everything about trans to recognize that it's not a decision the individual makes.

Makeveli_lives posted...

Because this isn't a black and white issue. There are layers to this shit and I don't know where I stand. I agree on some aspects from some people, disagree with some on others.

This movement will go wherever it will go and I'm not out here impeding progress or protesting against it. But I'm not about to pick what should or should not be accepted as it isn't my movement or community and thus its not my place to say where this movement should end.

The whole "if you're not with me your against me" mentality isn't helping anybody fam lol

See, if your answer was "I'm not transgender and thus I can't appropriately answer and thus I'll defer to them on the subject" then that's one thing. Saying it's some layers bullshit just means "yes" but you're trying to qualify the statement. We don't give a fuck how you qualify your statement, if it's not a yes/ no answer then it's pretty obvious what you're saying.

Let's put it this way. If I asked a person "are people of African descent people" and they didn't immediately say "yes" then any other answer is "no".

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Ooph, shut down. She probably should block you.

Makeveli_lives posted...

It's amazing that people think not marching along to the beat is equivocal to standing in the way of the march towards progress.

It kinda is in this case, if you can't accept that being trans/gay is not a choice then merely sharing that opinion is standing in the way of changing how its viewed and treated.

gunplagirl posted...

See, if your answer was "I'm not transgender and thus I can't appropriately answer and thus I'll defer to them on the subject" then that's one thing. Saying it's some layers bullshit just means "yes" but you're trying to qualify the statement. We don't give a fuck how you qualify your statement, if it's not a yes/ no answer then it's pretty obvious what you're saying.

Exactly. Even if he had said that it's a confusing issue and he didn't know what he believed right now that would lead to a discussion about it, but he didn't. He went straight to "I'm not stepping on that landmine." Everybody here knows what that means.

Hairistotle posted...

Honestly this. It's pretty cut and dry.

No it isn't. That's like me as a guy speaking on women's rights. Like in general, I tend to support the me too movement, but it's not like it's my place to say definitively that the movement has gone too far, or not far enough, or anything to that extent. This is their movement and I have enough respect for their movement that I'm not standing against it as it is up to women to decide how far it goes.

It's not like I'm out here agreeing with or defending every woman though. And I'm trying to be the same with the LGBT movement. I'm not going to champion every facet of the movement, but I ain't standing against it either.

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I'm not gay, but I know that gay people didn't choose to be gay.

I'm not trans, but I know that trans people didn't choose to be trans (And with all the extra bullshit they go through, why would anyone willingly choose to be?).

Making a half asses non committal response just looks like "Yes" in this scenario. It's not about black and white or with us or against us, it's common sense.

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Wow y'all love to put words in peoples mouths.

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Oh man, I love when people out themselves like this. Makes my life so much easier.

Makeveli_lives posted...

No it isn't. That's like me as a guy speaking on women's rights.

What you're doing here is the equivalent of somebody asking you "do you believe that women deserve equal rights?" and you responding with "woah, I'm not stepping on that landmine! I will say that I think women feel a certain way..."

gunplagirl posted...

See, if your answer was "I'm not transgender and thus I can't appropriately answer and thus I'll defer to them on the subject" then that's one thing. Saying it's some layers bullshit just means "yes" but you're trying to qualify the statement. We don't give a fuck how you qualify your statement, if it's not a yes/ no answer then it's pretty obvious what you're saying.

Saying I should ask others how I should feel instead of being okay with not knowing explicitly how I actually feel sounds like some indoctrination bs.

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Conflict posted...

Treating someone so awful that it leads to them killing themselves doesn't seem so different from homicide that the distinction is worth making

You serious?

Treating someone like shit is not the same as killing someone. One is intentional with an intentional end result, the other is not. They're both horrible situations, but one is worse. At best you would get a manslaughter charge for bullying leading to death and not a murder charge.

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gunplagirl posted...

*sees topic*

TC, pls

lol

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Makeveli_lives posted...

You serious?

Treating someone like shit is not the same as killing someone. One is intentional with an intentional end result, the other is not.

Which kind of abuse do you think is not intentional? Verbal, physical, mental, or emotional?

eston posted...

By this same token you could say that therapy saves lives but I doubt anyone would put it in the same category as open heart surgery

It is the same thing cause therapy heals the broken feelings in the heart

Tenlaar posted...

Which kind of abuse do you think is not intentional? Verbal, physical, mental, or emotional?

There are plenty of assholes who are rude and dismissive without any desire to see the other dead. Whereas a person who attacks another until the point of death actually wants to see them dead.

Both of these people suck, but they are not the same.

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TC, you should really take the other poster's advice and stop talking. The hole is deep enough as it is.

Makeveli_lives posted...

You serious?

Treating someone like shit is not the same as killing someone. One is intentional with an intentional end result, the other is not. They're both horrible situations, but one is worse. At best you would get a manslaughter charge for bullying leading to death and not a murder charge.

It isn't about the legal nature of what happened. It is what happens. Cishet society has the blood of countless trans people on its collective hands.

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Dragonblade01 posted...

TC, you should really take the other poster's advice and stop talking. The hole is deep enough as it is.

I'm about to lol. This is incredible, there's no middle ground to be had here.

"if you didn't say ABC then clearly you really mean XYZ"

I mean idk, I'm just trying to...

" you fucking meant XYZ you fucking anti-trans bigoted son of a BITCH!"

O_O

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Tenlaar posted...

What you're doing here is the equivalent of somebody asking you "do you believe that women deserve equal rights?" and you responding with "woah, I'm not stepping on that landmine! I will say that I think women feel a certain way..."

I know that this topic is moving kinda fast but I'd like to make sure that this doesn't go unacknowledged, TC. Since you brought up the women's right comparison, do you understand that being unable to give a simple answer on such a fundamental question as do trans people choose to be trans is like being unable to give a simple answer on do women deserve equal rights? It is the fundamental question that is at the core of everything.

Tenlaar posted...

I know that this topic is moving kinda fast but I'd like to make sure that this doesn't go unacknowledged, TC. Since you brought up the women's right comparison, do you understand that being unable to give a simple answer on such a fundamental question as do trans people choose to be trans is like being unable to give a simple answer on do women deserve equal rights? It is the fundamental question that is at the core of everything.

I support both movements and I support them having rights and protections that take them into account specifically. But I don't agree with every proponent of the cause.

Case in point, in general I support black lives matter as a black person in America. But I think some of this shit went to far like the 2 cops killed in NYC or the 8(?) cops shot in Dallas years ago. Less extreme examples were the couple of people saying white people couldn't come to blm meetings at all or have a voice in those meetings. Saying I support the movement doesn't mean I support everything done in the name of the movement by everyone who claims it as I have.

Life is complicated so I'll treat every movement like I treat my own, the difference being that because I'm not a part of it I'll choose not to champion everything that comes out of the movement.

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Makeveli_lives posted...

I support both movements and I support them having rights and protections that take them into account specifically. But I don't agree with every proponent of the cause.

...do women deserve equal rights?

TC, a quite a few of the statements regarding the semantics of surgical terms make sense.

But then you can't answer that simple yes/no question, and it's my eyes are rolling and I feel bad for even considering your defense. Like, yes, you are being unjustly accused for some things, but you're outing yourself on the question.

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Tenlaar posted...

...do women deserve equal rights?

I clearly said yes

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Conflict posted...

What proponents are you talking about specifically

For me too movement? This specifically :

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

Johnny depps ex is another recent one.

For the trans movement however, the example I thought went too far was the military paying for surgery. In that particular case however it was more me thinking the military is spending too much per soldier as is and this new surgery thing was too much and I wanted the military to make limitations on military spending. Like if they were to get the surgery then great but they give up free college to do so.

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Conflict posted...

No I'm talking about the trans movement

Edited to include one recent ish example. Another one is the bathroom "scandal". I don't particularly agree with them using the bathroom that matches their identity and would rather they use this single person, non-gendered bathroom instead.

https://www.compliancesigns.com/RRE-25443_White_on_Black.shtml

Like I don't agree with stores and businesses should be pressured into letting them use the bathroom they want regardless of how the business or the customers feel about it. But if that business publicly says yes we'll allow it, great. If the people in the bathroom are unbothered, great. If either party says no though however they aren't being anti-trans in my mind and nobody should attempt to force them to change their policy.

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Conflict posted...

Non-gendered bathrooms don't exist everywhere.

And if a MtF actually looks like a woman, what does it matter if they use the woman's bathroom? It'd be literally impossible for anybody to notice unless they tried standing at the entrance and monitoring their crotch. That's kinda the issue with the bathroom scandal in the first place, because if someone already made the effort to look like their gender, and you still wanted to force them to use the bathroom that matches their biological sex, you're actually sending in a bunch of women into men's bathrooms and vice versa and the results would be a hell of a lot worse.

Not to mention all the FtM people who are completely indistinguishable from cisgender men unless you're looking at their genitals. People always just want to rail about MtF people in bathrooms.

Makeveli_lives posted...

I clearly said yes

You did not clearly say yes, what you said was...
Makeveli_lives posted...

I support them having rights and protections that take them into account specifically.

That is not the same as equal rights, that is saying that they should have their own set of rights. But again you're dodging away from the actual point, which is that the question "do women deserve equal rights?" is a yes or no question and that question is at the core of the issue, and you've now managed to give a simple yes about that. It's the same with trans, the question "do trans people choose to be trans?" is the very core of the issue and if you respond to that question with waffling language that is obviously meant to avoid saying no without having to say yes then it is clear where you really stand.

TC just stop talking please, this is painful to read.

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Conflict posted...

Non-gendered bathrooms don't exist everywhere.

That is not an issue in my mind. Maybe customer only bathrooms only have male and female bathrooms, but there's definitely a single person bathroom somewhere in the building. Maybe it's employees only area in the back or something, idk. Simply make it available to people who are trans.

_Rinku_ posted...

Not to mention all the FtM people who are completely indistinguishable from cisgender men unless you're looking at their genitals. People always just want to rail about MtF people in bathrooms.

No one's railing against them. They have every right to feel unconfortable in the presence of a trans person. The trans person also has a right to be uncomfortable in the "wrong" bathroom. But the company shouldn't be forced to change, nor should the cis people be forced to bite their tongue all to appease the lone trans. Their comfort doesn't supersede anybody else's for such a benign issue. I fully acknowledge their concern but I'm not placing your concern above their concerns.

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Makeveli_lives posted...

No one's railing against them. They have every right to feel unconfortable in the presence of a trans person. The trans person also has a right to be uncomfortable in the "wrong" bathroom. But the company shouldn't be forced to change, nor should the cis people be forced to bite their tongue all to appease the lone trans. Their comfort doesn't supersede anybody else's for such a benign issue. I fully acknowledge their concern but I'm not placing your concern above their concerns.

Change "trans" to "gay" and realize how stupid your argument sounds.

Conflict posted...

What lol

They literally don't exist everywhere. As in the vast majority of public places in the country do not have unisex bathrooms. There is a very easy solution to this and it's not "just build new bathrooms".

Define public places. Because I can't think of a single place off the top of my head that didn't have a solo bathroom somewhere in the building in question, even if they were only for employees and management.

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