Current Events > Transgender celebrity agrees that not wanting to date trans people isn't...

(+) Yeah! (+)

It goes both ways.

Nobody can dictate their identity, and they can't dictate somebody else's preference.

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This topic went exactly the way I thought it would.

ReignFury posted...

LGBT advocates have been saying men should work through our prejudices and date trans people for years. Its complete nonsense and they have no power so to me this is a non-issue.

It's funny how the advocates for progression are doing nothing but keeping progression from taking its natural course.
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LadyVyxx posted...

This topic went exactly the way I thought it would.

Well we have this topic at least once a day on CE
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gunplagirl posted...

Ryuko_Chan posted...

woe is me, someone isnt attracted to me
where have I heard this one before

Don't you have more "woe is me I'll never transition" schtick to post about or did you finally get off your ass and do something about it? For what it's worth, you can lick the heel of the boot as it steps all over you but you'll never get the respect of your subjugators.

Im on hrt and hate having breasts and want them chopped off
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thanosibe posted...

ReignFury posted...

LGBT advocates have been saying men should work through our prejudices and date trans people for years. Its complete nonsense and they have no power so to me this is a non-issue.

It's funny how the advocates for progression are doing nothing but keeping progression from taking its natural course.

uh

progress doesn't happen without people making a conscious effort to enact it
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averagejoel posted...

uh

progress doesn't happen without people making a conscious effort to enact it

Its a double edged sword, push to hard and you get the backfire effect

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ReignFury posted...

averagejoel posted...

uh

progress doesn't happen without people making a conscious effort to enact it

Its a double edged sword, push to hard and you get the backfire effect

This is immensely stupid.

Also, since this topic is gonna be in my active messages anyway, Ill also add that people who argue that they factor in whether or not they can have kids in an assessment of whether they find people attractive or not are so disingenuous

I dont get why anyone cares. I wouldnt date a transsexual. If someone calls me a bigot then oh well

Malfunction posted...

This is immensely stupid.

Also, since this topic is gonna be in my active messages anyway, Ill also add that people who argue that they factor in whether or not they can have kids in an assessment of whether they find people attractive or not are so disingenuous

youre not entitled to anyones elses sexual preferences, sorry not sorry

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averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

ReignFury posted...

LGBT advocates have been saying men should work through our prejudices and date trans people for years. Its complete nonsense and they have no power so to me this is a non-issue.

It's funny how the advocates for progression are doing nothing but keeping progression from taking its natural course.

uh

progress doesn't happen without people making a conscious effort to enact it

If a guy doesn't want to be with a chick with a dick. Then that's fine. And no amount of push to "progress" is going to change that. Accepting people and hoping they have the same quality of life is different than pushing the way this thread is going.
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thanosibe posted...

averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

ReignFury posted...

LGBT advocates have been saying men should work through our prejudices and date trans people for years. Its complete nonsense and they have no power so to me this is a non-issue.

It's funny how the advocates for progression are doing nothing but keeping progression from taking its natural course.

uh

progress doesn't happen without people making a conscious effort to enact it

If a guy doesn't want to be with a chick with a dick. Then that's fine. And no amount of push to "progress" is going to change that. Accepting people and hoping they have the same quality of life is different than pushing the way this thread is going.

this is an ineffective way of thinking about the issue. I suggest reading one of my many posts in this topic where I explain a better way of thinking about it.
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averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

ReignFury posted...

LGBT advocates have been saying men should work through our prejudices and date trans people for years. Its complete nonsense and they have no power so to me this is a non-issue.

It's funny how the advocates for progression are doing nothing but keeping progression from taking its natural course.

uh

progress doesn't happen without people making a conscious effort to enact it

If a guy doesn't want to be with a chick with a dick. Then that's fine. And no amount of push to "progress" is going to change that. Accepting people and hoping they have the same quality of life is different than pushing the way this thread is going.

this is an ineffective way of thinking about the issue. I suggest reading one of my many posts in this topic where I explain a better way of thinking about it.

Nah I'm fine. Chicks don't have dicks. But if you want a chick with a dick that's fine for you.
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Conflict posted...

averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

if you're a dude and you only wanna put your thing in vaginas and the butts of women, fine. if you're a dude and you only wanna put your thing in the butts of men, fine. if you're a dude and you wanna put your thing in the vaginas and butts of men, women, and trans persons, that's fine, too.

why are people arguing?

because some people are very defensive about the idea that they might not be the perfect little trans ally they think they are

The idea that you have to be willing to fuck someone to be their ally is not an intelligent one

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thanosibe posted...

Nah I'm fine. Chicks don't have dicks. But if you want a chick with a dick that's fine for you.

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.
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Interesting to note that the strategy of demonizing people for their sexual preference in hopes of guilting them to change it was the same ideology used in gay conversion therapy camps.

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averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

Nah I'm fine. Chicks don't have dicks. But if you want a chick with a dick that's fine for you.

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.

So like the "system" that works on me as to why I have no preference for men? That "system" being my own heterosexuality?
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averagejoel posted...

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.

Isnt the notion that straight men should consider being attracted to penis equivalent to saying gay men should consider vagina? It would be disingenuous to pretend to have a sexual attraction to sex organs that turn you off. Stop acting like sexual preference can be a choice all of a sudden.

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thanosibe posted...

averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

Nah I'm fine. Chicks don't have dicks. But if you want a chick with a dick that's fine for you.

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.

So like the "system" that works on me as to why I have no preference for men? That "system" being my own heterosexuality?

the system is not your own heterosexuality. the system, in this case, is transphobia. it is much larger than you.
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ReignFury posted...

averagejoel posted...

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.

Isnt the notion that straight men should consider being attracted to penis equivalent to saying gay men should consider vagina?

I don't know, and I don't care. that is nothing even remotely close to what I am talking about.

It would be disingenuous to pretend to have a sexual attraction to sex organs that turn you off. Stop acting like sexual preference can be a choice all of a sudden.

it would be disingenuous indeed, but I am not suggesting that people do that. I also did nothing to suggest that sexual preference was a choice.
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averagejoel posted...

the system is not your own heterosexuality. the system, in this case, is transphobia. it is much larger than you.

Ok then what is it we owe to trans people besides common courtesy? I cant change transphobia any more than I can change racism or sexism, is it my responsibility to change other people? That said, good luck to you in your fight against transphobia.

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ReignFury posted...

averagejoel posted...

the system is not your own heterosexuality. the system, in this case, is transphobia. it is much larger than you.

Ok then what is it we owe to trans people besides common courtesy? I cant change transphobia any more than I can change racism or sexism, is it my responsibility to change other people? That said, good luck to you in your fight against transphobia.

to start off:
averagejoel posted...

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.

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averagejoel posted...

to start off:

dont pull that shit now, answer my questions unless you have nothing to say

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averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

averagejoel posted...

thanosibe posted...

Nah I'm fine. Chicks don't have dicks. But if you want a chick with a dick that's fine for you.

you should make an effort to think about the system in which your actions and thoughts take place, the effect that that has system has on other people, and how your actions reinforce or subvert the system.

So like the "system" that works on me as to why I have no preference for men? That "system" being my own heterosexuality?

the system is not your own heterosexuality. the system, in this case, is transphobia. it is much larger than you.

There is no transaphobia in me for preferring a gal with a vagina over a dick as a heterosexual male. There's really no debate.
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He did answer your question
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ReignFury posted...

averagejoel posted...

to start off:

dont pull that shit now, answer my questions unless you have nothing to say

ultimately, those are questions that you have to answer for yourself.

people (or at least one person) in here have framed it as though I was calling someone "evil", and I find that framing completely ridiculous because that isn't how I view the world at all.

no one is perfect. everyone has problems. the important thing here is a process of personal growth: recognizing what those problems are and where they come from, unlearning harmful behaviors, and recognizing where other people are in that process.

you don't necessarily "owe" trans people anything besides common courtesy (though in this case I consider recognizing the system in place and your own complicity in that system to be part of "common courtesy"). but as someone who tries to be good and do good things, I do consider it my responsibility to at least try and engage people if their point of view is in line with transphobia (or, for that matter, any other existing harmful system).

does that answer work for you?
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averagejoel posted...

ultimately, those are questions that you have to answer for yourself.

people (or at least one person) in here have framed it as though I was calling someone "evil", and I find that framing completely ridiculous because that isn't how I view the world at all.

no one is perfect. everyone has problems. the important thing here is a process of personal growth: recognizing what those problems are and where they come from, unlearning harmful behaviors, and recognizing where other people are in that process.

you don't necessarily "owe" trans people anything besides common courtesy (though in this case I consider recognizing the system in place and your own complicity in that system to be part of "common courtesy"). but as someone who tries to be good and do good things, I do consider it my responsibility to at least try and engage people if their point of view is in line with transphobia (or, for that matter, any other existing harmful system).

does that answer work for you?

That is a good answer. Please excuse the curt attitude, Im pressed for time and thought you were trolling

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ReignFury posted...

averagejoel posted...

ultimately, those are questions that you have to answer for yourself.

people (or at least one person) in here have framed it as though I was calling someone "evil", and I find that framing completely ridiculous because that isn't how I view the world at all.

no one is perfect. everyone has problems. the important thing here is a process of personal growth: recognizing what those problems are and where they come from, unlearning harmful behaviors, and recognizing where other people are in that process.

you don't necessarily "owe" trans people anything besides common courtesy (though in this case I consider recognizing the system in place and your own complicity in that system to be part of "common courtesy"). but as someone who tries to be good and do good things, I do consider it my responsibility to at least try and engage people if their point of view is in line with transphobia (or, for that matter, any other existing harmful system).

does that answer work for you?

That is a good answer. Please excuse the curt attitude, Im pressed for time and thought you were trolling

there are a lot of people on this board, and in this topic in particular, who are not interested in good-faith conversations, so I get snappy like that pretty frequently
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averagejoel posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

What if the reason you don't want to date transwomen is because you'd like to impregnate your future SO and have children that are biologically related to both of you?

trans women are not the only women that are unable to get pregnant

That doesn't answer the question.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Phobia is an aversion to something. Youre demonstrating an aversion to trans people if you wont date one simply because theyre trans.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/phobia?s=t

noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

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shockthemonkey posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/phobia?s=t

noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

...do you need the definition of aversion or was desire to avoid hard to understand?

Wouldn't that be trans-sarmassaphobia then?
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shockthemonkey posted...

Phobia is an aversion to something. Youre demonstrating an aversion to trans people if you wont date one simply because theyre trans.

Not wanting to date trans people isnt the same as avoiding them all together.
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shockthemonkey posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/phobia?s=t

noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

...do you need the definition of aversion or was desire to avoid hard to understand?

I don't have any desire to avoid John. Nor do I have any desire to fuck John. If John becomes Jane, I do not suddenly develop desire to avoid that person no do I develop a desire to fuck that person.

Sexuality is a biological function based around biological anatomy. We should not be forced to pretend that biological anatomy does not exist or try to rewire our natural instincts for the sake of social progress.

evil_zombie11 posted...

True. Only here would you see this conversation go this far. Most normal people don't even think about stuff like this. We've got wayyyy more stuff to worry about. Work, family, schooling, etc etc

So youre saying youve formed your staunch opinion on this subject after not thinking about it at all?

Shows us the value of that opinion, no?

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Attraction is a natural instinct but it is not based on anything as specific as genitals. Children don't instinctively know about anatomy. It is learned information. For instance, children assume everyone has the same genitalia as themselves. It is a surprise for them to learn that boys and girls are different in that regard. If you remove a boy from society, never teach him about the differences between the sexes, and then introduce him to a pretty girl after he reaches puberty, he would likely still have a natural attraction but he would expect the girl to have a penis because he has never learned about anything else.

Just because you don't actively notice society shaping your opinions doesn't mean it isn't constantly happening.
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I made this same topic on LL and I got 506 posts in it. Thanks TC.

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Veggeta_MAX posted...

I made this same topic on LL and I got 506 posts in it. Thanks TC.

Nice. I did the same on LL Platinum and got 800.
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shockthemonkey posted...

BanjoBoomer posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/phobia?s=t

noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

...do you need the definition of aversion or was desire to avoid hard to understand?

I don't have any desire to avoid John. Nor do I have any desire to fuck John. If John becomes Jane, I do not suddenly develop desire to avoid that person no do I develop a desire to fuck that person.

Sexuality is a biological function based around biological anatomy. We should not be forced to pretend that biological anatomy does not exist or try to rewire our natural instincts for the sake of social progress.

shockthemonkey posted...

Phobia is an aversion to something. Youre demonstrating an aversion to trans people if you wont date one simply because theyre trans.

Doesnt sound like being trans is the only reason you wouldnt date that person. I dont understand the point of being dense about it.

Okay but the point is not wanting to fuck someone is not the same as wanting to avoid someone.

Like, I've met plenty of women on Tinder who won't go out with me simply because I'm too short. Do they have short-people-phobia?

BanjoBoomer posted...

Okay but the point is not wanting to fuck someone is not the same as wanting to avoid someone.

Like, I've met plenty of women on Tinder who won't go out with me simply because I'm too short. Do they have short-people-phobia?

the key difference between short-people-phobia and transphobia is that, while there are certain disadvantages to being short, short people are not systemically disenfranchised on nearly the same level as trans people. as such, the phobia from individuals is significantly less harmful
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shockthemonkey posted...

You can have aversions in dating that you dont have for friendships. Its still a phobia.

It's literally not. Don't fucking twist words.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/aversion?s=t

noun
a strong feeling of dislike, opposition, repugnance, or antipathy (usually followed by to): a strong aversion to snakes and spiders.
a cause or object of dislike; person or thing that causes antipathy: His pet aversion is guests who are always late.
Obsolete. the act of averting; a turning away or preventing.

Notice how fear is not included in any of them? That's because phobias are fears. The words are not synonyms and pretending they are is disrespectful to people with them. Thought you were better than that.
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shockthemonkey posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

You can have aversions in dating that you dont have for friendships. Its still a phobia.

It's literally not. Don't fucking twist words.

Its funny watching you get mad at basic word meanings.

And it's funny watching you ignore basic word meanings.
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averagejoel posted...

BanjoBoomer posted...

Okay but the point is not wanting to fuck someone is not the same as wanting to avoid someone.

Like, I've met plenty of women on Tinder who won't go out with me simply because I'm too short. Do they have short-people-phobia?

the key difference between short-people-phobia and transphobia is that, while there are certain disadvantages to being short, short people are not systemically disenfranchised on nearly the same level as trans people. as such, the phobia from individuals is significantly less harmful

I think people grossly underappreciate just how poorly short men are treated. We're basically regarded as a lesser class of men (when's the last time a short guy has been elected president? Well before people could see him on TV, that's for sure), our existence is traditionally hidden in media where short male leads are made to look taller (except for goofy comic relief characters) and it's still perfectly acceptable to make jokes at our expense, we're just expected to laugh along or even self-deprecate so we don't come across as insecure.

Granted, we don't have religious folks thinking our very existence is a sin, but I wouldn't just call it "certain disadvantages". The way tall guys and short guys are treated is radically different. Tall guys don't even seem to realize how much easier it is for them to grab attention and command respect in a room. Yet I would never get offended by the fact that a particular woman isn't attracted to short guys. People are attracted to what they are attracted to. I didn't choose the fact that my dick gets hard when I think of a dominant woman stepping on my face with her bare feet, and no woman ever chose to be attracted to tall guys. It just is how it is.

BanjoBoomer posted...

I think people grossly underappreciate just how poorly short men are treated. We're basically regarded as a lesser class of men (when's the last time a short guy has been elected president? Well before people could see him on TV, that's for sure), our existence is traditionally hidden in media where short male leads are made to look taller (except for goofy comic relief characters) and it's still perfectly acceptable to make jokes at our expense, we're just expected to laugh along or even self-deprecate so we don't come across as insecure.

interesting that you bring that up. I tend to think of a lack of representation in media as a symptom of deeper issues rather than a problem in and of itself -- similar to, say, chest pains being a symptom of a heart attack rather than the problem itself.

increasing diversity in the media without addressing the issues that caused the lack of diversity in the first place is therefore ineffective in much the same way that you wouldn't expect painkillers alone to solve the problem causing the pain.

I'm not sure what sort of core issue would be at play here. My guess is that it's related in some way to an idealized "manly man" stereotype. if that's the case, then any men who deviate from that mold in any way, not just short men, would be harmed by it. this would definitely include trans men.

Being expected to laugh along or self-deprecate is kinda similar to the experiences of a lot of marginalized people, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the offending jokes are anywhere near the same level. And again, if I'm correct that it's related to the "manly man" idea, then presumably there would be similar jokes regarding men who deviate from that mold in any way (including, again, trans men). This rings true anecdotally to me.

Granted, we don't have religious folks thinking our very existence is a sin, but I wouldn't just call it "certain disadvantages". The way tall guys and short guys are treated is radically different. Tall guys don't even seem to realize how much easier it is for them to grab attention and command respect in a room.

I don't think difficulty grabbing attention and commanding respect in a room is at all the same as systemic disenfranchisement, and I also don't think it's unique to short men.

Yet I would never get offended by the fact that a particular women isn't attracted to short guys. People are attracted to what they are attracted to. I didn't choose the fact that my dick gets hard when I think of a dominant woman stepping on my face with her bare feet, and no woman ever chose to be attracted to tall guys. It just is how it is.

it's not about whether specific individuals are offended by these things -- it's about context and the effect that our socialization has on our worldview (which includes who we're attracted to), and how our thoughts and actions reinforce or subvert the societal systems in question.
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As a short man I can confirm it is a disadvantage that we are reminded of every day in one way or another.
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