Board 8 > Things that really bother me about people who hate The Last Jedi

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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 1:57:37 PM
1
Note that I personally felt more indifferent towards it than anything. Here goes though:

-Acting like critics are shills for liking the film and other cases of massive critical dissonance, without understanding reasons why critics might like something they don't like and vice versa.

-Some of the more politically-motivated criticisms of the film reek of unfortunate implications, e.g. acting like the film's diverse cast is solely to make a political statement, implying that the one making the criticism sees white male as the default type of human being

-The fact that they're the ones who talk about The Last Jedi the most online, while everyone else has largely moved on from the film aside from its fans gushing about it every now and then, making it seem like this specific subgroup of Star Wars fans feels like they're more important than everyone else, for instance taking complete credit for Solo's box-office failure.

As time has gone on I've begun to understand more of the general criticisms of Disney-era Star Wars, since when I watched Last Jedi, despite not really liking it much, I was dumbfounded as to how so many hate the film with such a passion.

Also thinking about the films more, Rey being a "Mary Sue" makes less and less sense, and makes her detractors seem hypocritical when they complain about Luke and Anakin being whiny but then when we get a Star Wars protagonist who isn't, she's an invincible hero. Rey is simply more proactive and has a more positive personality compared to past Star Wars leads. I can understand why this might not endear her to some, but come on. Anastasia Steele from Fifty Shades of Grey is a far better example - she literally gets everything she wants without any effort. Rey doesn't fit that description. Rey's like, the opposite of that if anything.
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scarletspeed7
01/10/19 1:59:16 PM
2
"Armageddon" is cut together like its own highlights. Take almost any 30 seconds at random, and you'd have a TV ad. The movie is an assault on the eyes, the ears, the brain, common sense and the human desire to be entertained. No matter what they're charging to get in, it's worth more to get out.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 2:09:01 PM
3
That's pretty much how I feel about that film lol.

My point about the critics, also, is that I can think of infinitely more sensible reasons why there was such critical dissonance on The Last Jedi than just critics being paid or being shills or whatever non-answer is given.
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Logience
01/10/19 2:10:55 PM
4
Honestly, I think the worst part of all this is how the fact that the movie really does feel just "not right" in some way or another that anybody can identify, regardless of how they think it is, ended up so easily co-opted by bigots into rallying the average undecided voter into advocating cultural backlash and mass genocide. It's like how Gamergate used the veneer of "breaking journalistic favoritism" as a smokescreen to demand the exact same things.

It's probably for the best that the Plinkett video just focused on interpreting it as a comedy, but even then it still feels like feeding into the trolls who will just cherrypick arguments from that video and use it to say "AND THIS IS WHY WOMEN AND RACE TRAITORS SHOULD BE EXPELLED AND EXTERMINATED FROM OUR SOCIETY".
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CelesMyUserName
01/10/19 2:22:24 PM
5
stop buying into russian bots
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redrocket
01/10/19 2:27:34 PM
6
scarletspeed7 posted...
"Armageddon" is cut together like its own highlights. Take almost any 30 seconds at random, and you'd have a TV ad. The movie is an assault on the eyes, the ears, the brain, common sense and the human desire to be entertained. No matter what they're charging to get in, it's worth more to get out.


This is a great post but what is it doing here?
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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 2:32:50 PM
7
My actual take on why The Last Jedi has been so polarizing, is that if The Force Awakens tried too hard to avoid the pitfalls of the prequels and thus became too similar to the original trilogy (personally I don't agree fully, the film plays out in similar fashion to the original film but the set-up is considerably different), then The Last Jedi piles on top of that trying too hard to dodge the criticisms of The Force Awakens. The end result is a movie where all manner of weird nonsense happens without much in the way of explanation, which made it come across as perhaps exceptionally fan-unfriendly.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here for now.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 2:33:13 PM
8
CelesMyUserName posted...
stop buying into russian bots


I never said anything about Russian bots.
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Logience
01/10/19 2:34:37 PM
9
CelesMyUserName posted...
stop buying into russian bots

Confused face. Since when did the Soviets do anything besides fuck with the election and invade Ukraine in the past five years?
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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 2:35:36 PM
10
Because some people have gone about blaming Last Jedi's low audience score on RT on Russian bots. Probably not completely serious.
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redrocket
01/10/19 2:37:27 PM
11
LinkMarioSamus posted...
My actual take on why The Last Jedi has been so polarizing, is that if The Force Awakens tried too hard to avoid the pitfalls of the prequels and thus became too similar to the original trilogy (personally I don't agree fully, the film plays out in similar fashion to the original film but the set-up is considerably different), then The Last Jedi piles on top of that trying too hard to dodge the criticisms of The Force Awakens. The end result is a movie where all manner of weird nonsense happens without much in the way of explanation, which made it come across as perhaps exceptionally fan-unfriendly.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here for now.


This post is remarkably spot on.

Last Jedi put way more effort into being the anti-TFA than just telling a good story itself. And as a result we have two conflicting movies that are just a mess when taken together, and somehow we still don't have a believable setup for the third movie in the trilogy.
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banananor
01/10/19 3:16:03 PM
12
As a person who thinks TLJ is bad, I feel like you're over generalizing or stereotyping me
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Mr Lasastryke
01/10/19 3:22:01 PM
13
LinkMarioSamus posted...
Anastasia Steele from Fifty Shades of Grey is a far better example - she literally gets everything she wants without any effort.


characters this doesn't apply to can also be mary sues
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SwiftyDC
01/10/19 3:37:59 PM
14
This trilogy should have been done by one Director as its obvious that one did not like the others ideas and went out to rectify them selfishly and do it in ways that people would not have theorized or flat out thought was possible just for the sake of being unpredictable.

Probably boned his wife or something.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 3:43:49 PM
15
banananor posted...
As a person who thinks TLJ is bad, I feel like you're over generalizing or stereotyping me


I never meant to imply that everyone who hates TLJ fits into one of those categories, but sorry man.

Also to be fair, the original trilogy didn't have a single director behind it, nor did George Lucas have any plans on making it a trilogy during production of the original or Empire Strikes Back. Doesn't mean it's not a legitimate criticism considering the new trilogy was probably meant to be more in the spirit of The Lord of the Rings or something in that it was always intended to be a trilogy, but still.
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scarletspeed7
01/10/19 3:46:14 PM
16
SwiftyDC posted...
This trilogy should have been done by one Director as its obvious that one did not like the others ideas and went out to rectify them selfishly and do it in ways that people would not have theorized or flat out thought was possible just for the sake of being unpredictable.

Ah, one director. Just like the original trilogy.
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red13n
01/10/19 3:48:03 PM
17
LinkMarioSamus posted...
Because some people have gone about blaming Last Jedi's low audience score on RT on Russian bots. Probably not completely serious.


not all of them are specificially Russian bots, but the audience views were almost certainly tanked in part to russian bots.

Not to mention russian influence on US opinions elsewhere.

Pop culture is as good a place as any to keep your divisive message relevant
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Mr Lasastryke
01/10/19 3:49:09 PM
18
LinkMarioSamus posted...
Also to be fair, the original trilogy didn't have a single director behind it, nor did George Lucas have any plans on making it a trilogy during production of the original or Empire Strikes Back.


lucas did do some (uncredited) directing on RotJ, though. he also wrote the story for ESB and co-wrote the screenplay for RotJ. the OT isn't as much of a personal creation as the PT is, sure, but it's probably not as disjointed as the NT is going to be, either.
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red13n
01/10/19 3:49:31 PM
19
Also there is plenty wrong with TLJ, but somehow these wrongs have been attributed primarily to diversity instead of the plot simply not being cohesive. Which is where the primary concerns with the criticism exist.
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Mr Lasastryke
01/10/19 3:50:42 PM
20
also, the OT isn't a great argument for "see, trilogies by more than one director CAN be good!" as RotJ kinda sucks >_>
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Logience
01/10/19 3:50:50 PM
21
red13n posted...
Also there is plenty wrong with TLJ, but somehow these wrongs have been attributed primarily to diversity instead of the plot simply not being cohesive. Which is where the primary concerns with the criticism exist.

You think they care?
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NFUN
01/10/19 3:52:53 PM
22
redrocket posted...
scarletspeed7 posted...
"Armageddon" is cut together like its own highlights. Take almost any 30 seconds at random, and you'd have a TV ad. The movie is an assault on the eyes, the ears, the brain, common sense and the human desire to be entertained. No matter what they're charging to get in, it's worth more to get out.


This is a great post but what is it doing here?

lms does this shit a lot and nobody ever really cares so scarlet likes to post about something completely off-topic instead
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NFUN
01/10/19 3:54:01 PM
23
LinkMarioSamus posted...
banananor posted...
As a person who thinks TLJ is bad, I feel like you're over generalizing or stereotyping me


I never meant to imply that everyone who hates TLJ fits into one of those categories, but sorry man.

Also to be fair, the original trilogy didn't have a single director behind it, nor did George Lucas have any plans on making it a trilogy during production of the original or Empire Strikes Back. Doesn't mean it's not a legitimate criticism considering the new trilogy was probably meant to be more in the spirit of The Lord of the Rings or something in that it was always intended to be a trilogy, but still.

the lord of the rings is either six books or one
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Logience
01/10/19 3:54:13 PM
24
NFUN posted...
redrocket posted...
scarletspeed7 posted...
"Armageddon" is cut together like its own highlights. Take almost any 30 seconds at random, and you'd have a TV ad. The movie is an assault on the eyes, the ears, the brain, common sense and the human desire to be entertained. No matter what they're charging to get in, it's worth more to get out.


This is a great post but what is it doing here?

lms does this shit a lot and nobody ever really cares so scarlet likes to post about something completely off-topic instead

If he's a local troll, then why isn't he on your ignore list?
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NFUN
01/10/19 3:57:14 PM
25
Logience posted...
NFUN posted...
redrocket posted...
scarletspeed7 posted...
"Armageddon" is cut together like its own highlights. Take almost any 30 seconds at random, and you'd have a TV ad. The movie is an assault on the eyes, the ears, the brain, common sense and the human desire to be entertained. No matter what they're charging to get in, it's worth more to get out.


This is a great post but what is it doing here?

lms does this shit a lot and nobody ever really cares so scarlet likes to post about something completely off-topic instead

If he's a local troll, then why isn't he on your ignore list?

LMS isn't obnoxious enough for me to ignore and at least sometimes provides worthwhile opinions about things besides overplayed cultural analysis. On occasion. I guess.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/10/19 4:13:05 PM
26
Mr Lasastryke posted...
also, the OT isn't a great argument for "see, trilogies by more than one director CAN be good!" as RotJ kinda sucks >_>


I disagree, although I understand why it's typically considered the weakest of the trilogy. The only real problem I had with Return of the Jedi is that it lacked the ambition of the previous films and existed to do little more than close out the trilogy. But what a conclusion! Yes, I had no problems with the Ewoks, although again I do get why they get so much flak. At the same time, I've read from various sources that the Ewoks weren't particularly hated when Return of the Jedi was released, and it was only later on during the franchise's resurgence in popularity in the '90s that Return of the Jedi was declared the weak link of the original trilogy and the Ewoks became symbolic of it.

Fun fact: Return of the Jedi's director of photography, Alan Hume, had previously shot two movies which would end up getting the MST3K treatment in the first Netflix season.
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Mr Lasastryke
01/10/19 4:20:06 PM
27
yeah, the ewoks are a huge problem for me, but there's also other stuff that bothers me (boba fett's stupid death, the unoriginality of the second death star). some stuff in the movie is good but overall i don't like it.
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ZeldaTPLink
01/10/19 4:22:27 PM
28
TLJ has a couple problems, I think the main one is that the trilogy has no internal cohesion anymore and it tried to break things without stopping to think the Ep. 9 will have to fix them. Luke's death for example was very dumb.

But the SW fandom seems to hate it mostly for either "pandering to the evil SJWs" or for contradicting expanded universe books 99.9% of viewers didn't read. Which are criticisms I don't really care for.
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Mr Lasastryke
01/10/19 4:28:51 PM
29
ZeldaTPLink posted...
contradicting expanded universe books 99.9% of viewers didn't read.


well, technically the complaint would be that it contradicts canon books. expanded universe books (which are now called legends books) aren't canon so if there's any contradictions to them, it shouldn't matter.

anyway, i never got this argument tbqh. people were saying "holdo is so different in some book!" but isn't she, like, 30 years younger in said book? yeah, i can't imagine how a woman can change in multiple decades.

perhaps TLJ contradicts the canon books in other ways but i don't recall hearing how.
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Gatarix
01/10/19 4:35:01 PM
30
the only "contradicts canon" complaint I've heard is lightspeed ramming, which is a fair complaint
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redrocket
01/10/19 4:51:46 PM
31
The major difference between the trilogies is that while Lucas didn't direct all the movies he certainly exercised overall creative control.

Also, at no point in the OT did a director set out to deliberately subvert everything that was done in the previous movies.
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scarletspeed7
01/10/19 5:12:46 PM
32
Except in Empire.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/11/19 8:28:30 AM
33
One other thing, is how people who hate The Last Jedi take full credit at Solo flopping, as if just the fact the film was receiving so much negative attention from fans alone can explain that. Then explain to me how Venom was a commercial success?

Speaking of which, also people acting like the audience Rotten Tomatoes score is the be-all, end-all when it comes to the overall fan reception of a film. So then how does Venom have a significantly higher audience RT score than The Last Jedi, but a lower imdb score?

I'll fully admit I had complete sympathy for Star Wars fans who lashed out at Lucasfilm for attacking them and calling them various forms of bigot. After watching the original trilogy again I did a complete turn-around and decided the fans - those who are complaining a ton anyway - have pretty much been asking for it. It's basically like poking and prodding frivolously at a caged animal and then getting mad when it escapes and goes on a rampage. What did you expect?
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TotallyNotMI
01/11/19 8:32:20 AM
34
LinkMarioSamus posted...
-The fact that they're the ones who talk about The Last Jedi the most online, while everyone else has largely moved on from the film aside from its fans gushing about it every now and then, making it seem like this specific subgroup of Star Wars fans feels like they're more important than everyone else, for instance taking complete credit for Solo's box-office failure.

We've had three topics about TLJ on B8 in the past month and they've all been made by people defending the movie.
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azuarc
01/11/19 9:09:36 AM
35
Terrible opinion zone. TLJ is an awful movie, in part for some of the reasons you listed, which you don't at all understand, and in part for reasons that aren't listed. There's just very little that's good about it, other than Luke's one moment of badassery.
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wg64Z
01/11/19 9:33:41 AM
36
TLJ sucked, and it's not because of SJW reasons. It's because of a nonsensical plot and characters making decisions that were just plain wrong, stupid, or there for the sake of fueling another dumb plot point.

What's really upsetting is that anyone with ANY kind of criticism is called a Bigot ****boy. You can't possibly have any real criticisms, you just hate women!

...Yeah no, your movie just sucks. Has nothing to do with the genitals of the characters.
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kevwaffles
01/11/19 10:26:15 AM
37
scarletspeed7 posted...
Except in Empire.

The only thing Empire really subverts is, well, the first draft of Empire.
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TotallyNotMI
01/11/19 10:31:12 AM
38
wg64Z posted...
What's really upsetting is that anyone with ANY kind of criticism is called a Bigot ****boy. You can't possibly have any real criticisms, you just hate women!

Yeah, one of the people I went to see it with told me I only hated it because I was a man as we were leaving the theater and I expressed my disappointment. I didn't know how to respond to that.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/11/19 10:38:17 AM
39
wg64Z posted...
TLJ sucked, and it's not because of SJW reasons. It's because of a nonsensical plot and characters making decisions that were just plain wrong, stupid, or there for the sake of fueling another dumb plot point.

What's really upsetting is that anyone with ANY kind of criticism is called a Bigot ****boy. You can't possibly have any real criticisms, you just hate women!

...Yeah no, your movie just sucks. Has nothing to do with the genitals of the characters.


I didn't mean to imply that any criticism of TLJ is bigotry, just that quite a lot of it carries unfortunate implications.
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LinkMarioSamus
01/11/19 10:38:42 AM
40
TotallyNotMI posted...
LinkMarioSamus posted...
-The fact that they're the ones who talk about The Last Jedi the most online, while everyone else has largely moved on from the film aside from its fans gushing about it every now and then, making it seem like this specific subgroup of Star Wars fans feels like they're more important than everyone else, for instance taking complete credit for Solo's box-office failure.

We've had three topics about TLJ on B8 in the past month and they've all been made by people defending the movie.


I'm more talking about YouTube.
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KingButz
01/11/19 10:41:13 AM
41
Never thought i would see someone compare star wars to fifty shades
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redrocket
01/11/19 3:56:15 PM
42
LinkMarioSamus posted...
TotallyNotMI posted...
LinkMarioSamus posted...
-The fact that they're the ones who talk about The Last Jedi the most online, while everyone else has largely moved on from the film aside from its fans gushing about it every now and then, making it seem like this specific subgroup of Star Wars fans feels like they're more important than everyone else, for instance taking complete credit for Solo's box-office failure.

We've had three topics about TLJ on B8 in the past month and they've all been made by people defending the movie.


I'm more talking about YouTube.


Nobody here gives a fuck about your cherry-picked YouTube anecdotes.
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ZeldaTPLink
01/11/19 4:44:47 PM
43
wg64Z posted...
TLJ sucked, and it's not because of SJW reasons. It's because of a nonsensical plot and characters making decisions that were just plain wrong, stupid, or there for the sake of fueling another dumb plot point.

What's really upsetting is that anyone with ANY kind of criticism is called a Bigot ****boy. You can't possibly have any real criticisms, you just hate women!

...Yeah no, your movie just sucks. Has nothing to do with the genitals of the characters.


You must actively avoid social media if you haven't seen people bashing Star Wars for having social minorities in it.
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ZeldaTPLink
01/11/19 4:46:36 PM
44
I've seen people bitching about Doctor Who having a female Doctor like that was the end of the world.

Heck, forget TLJ, the amount of crap Force Awakens got for having a fenale lead was unreal. There were people organizing mass boycotts on social media at the time.
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CoolCly
01/11/19 4:55:19 PM
45
i think a big reason why the movie is so polarizing is that it's kind of two different movies

There's the A plot stuff adventure stuff with Finn and Rose and the Rebel ship conspiracy stuff with Poe, and then there's like a completely separate movie with all of the B plot force stuff with Rey, Luke, and Kylo Ren. They are all pretty much completely self contained from eachother until the very end where they intersect.

It seems to me that a lot of people either end up hating the A plot because it sucks and the B plot because they don't like how Luke was handled and think this ruined the Jedi or something.

Personally, I loved the B plot, but.... the A plot was most of the movie and it really sucked. So I think the movie sucked. There's a lot of people like me. I think this group doesn't necessarily think TLJ ruined Star Wars... we just think it was a bad movie.

But then there's a lot of people who would accept the crappy A plot but Luke's bitter attitude and choices enrages them, so they think the movie sucked. These people REALLY want to talk about how it ruined Star Wars.

The movie has twice the normal chance to be hated by doing two very different parts of the movie but giving them both really good reasons to be hated!
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ZeldaTPLink
01/11/19 5:00:37 PM
46
This is... actually a pretty good way to see it.
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SwiftyDC
01/11/19 5:03:00 PM
47
I haven't even watched Solo because TLJ sucked so badly.

I completely forgot about it. Maybe I'll finally give it a watch.
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XIII_rocks
01/11/19 5:03:13 PM
48
ZeldaTPLink posted...
I've seen people bitching about Doctor Who having a female Doctor like that was the end of the world.

Heck, forget TLJ, the amount of crap Force Awakens got for having a fenale lead was unreal. There were people organizing mass boycotts on social media at the time.


Yeah

The go-to response for people who criticise the movie is "hating this movie doesn't make me a sexist racist BASTARD" and what have you.

But conversely you cannot pretend that element does not exist. And it's probably larger than you might think. Legitimate criticisms of the movie should not be written off as sexism or racism, obviously, but acting flippant about people like that, treating it as some tiny minority, trying to play down how much that affects discussion of the movie, is equally asinine.
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ZeldaTPLink
01/11/19 5:14:29 PM
49
SwiftyDC posted...
I haven't even watched Solo because TLJ sucked so badly.

I completely forgot about it. Maybe I'll finally give it a watch.


It's a decent summer blockbuster.
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Paratroopa1
01/11/19 5:17:04 PM
50
I actually like Solo, it has some really dumb things but they had some fun with it. you're going to groan a few times but accept that and there's a few really nice performances and a few fun setpieces
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