Current Events > The ending(s) of ME3 still piss me off to this day (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

apocalyptic_4 posted...

The Borg from star trek? What exactly did they do it sounds familiar to what the reapers were doing in ME

The borg is a half-biological / half-machine race that had technology to adapt super ridiculously fast to any threats becoming effectively immune to them. When one Borg adapted, all other Borg would adapt as well. They saw purely biological forms as evolving and adapting too slow and decided to make all life perfect by assimilation into the Borg collective where you were stripped of all individuality and turned into a super communist.
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Axiom posted...

Offworlder1 posted...

Axiom posted...

I played a complete paragon playthrough the first time then made the choice to wipe out all AI. Lmao whoops

You made the paragon good ending choice.

I wouldn't call genocide and killing your best bud's lover a paragon choice tbh >_>

Edi already said she was willing to sacrifice herself fo the greater good, also the geth and synthetics can be rebuilt, that is NOT genocide, also fuck the reapers cause they do need to be wiped from existance.

Synthesis is the most renegade/evil option you can make, you rewrite everyones dna without anyones consent, you are letting the reapers win since you have become like them, Its also leaving the reapers free to war anyway later since no one controls them and just because they understand others does not mean they would not choose to resume killing of their own free will.

Control is a fantasy since its been hammered into the player through all three games no one can resist indoctrination. If TIM was a reaper slave (someone who was also extrememly strong willed) there is no way Shepard could pull it off.

Most importantly is that Star brat supports synthesis, and control but opposes destroy, with it being the reaper controller/hive mind/conscious logic says to go with the option it does not want. Having synthesis or control benefits Star brat some how or it would be impartial, so choosing destroy is very clearly the right decision.
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Whats me3
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loafy013 posted...

vocedelmorte posted...

I think, that people who don't understand why Destroy is the only correct ending, are lacking in morality department.
You literally have to choose to sacrifice machines to save an actual living beings, and you shouldn't have issues with doing so tbh.
Yes, its sad, but its the right choice and the lesser evil

But as you play through the game, you realize that the machines are just as alive as organics. Legion referring to himself in first person shows they have become individuals.

Its a matter of choosing lesser evil cause other endings are far worse. You don't have an option to save 'good' AI, thats the point

I was a huge fan of this series from the first game on, and honestly I didn't give much of a shit about the ending. Granted I didn't get around to beating ME3 until after all the outrage and until after they released the extended cuts and all that, but for me the appeal was always the ongoing story. I didn't really need it to be wrapped up.
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The second Shepard allowed the Geth to rewrite themselves (into something that Legion flat out said the Geth *didn't want to be*) into individuals with Reaper Code, someone should have stripped him of his rank because clearly he shouldn't be making any big decisions.

it's such a colossally stupid idea, and I don't understand why the fuck they decided to go that route after they spent so much time in ME2 setting up the Geth to be completely unique.
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Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes. We will be yours to control and direct as you see fit.

Shepard: Youre asking me to change everything, everyone. I cant make that decision. And I wont.
Catalyst: Why not? Synthetics are already part of you. Can you imagine your life without them?

You don't see it ? He clearly don't want you to choose destroy, as he make points of why you better off choosing other two outcomes

Imagine being such an SJW that you think destroying genocidal machines is the bad choice lmfao
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Offworlder1 posted...

Edi already said she was willing to sacrifice herself fo the greater good, also the geth and synthetics can be rebuilt, that is NOT genocide, also fuck the reapers cause they do need to be wiped from existance.

That's like saying the Reapers don't commit genocide because they bring organics back each cycle. EDI and the Geth are dead.

Control is a fantasy since its been hammered into the player through all three games no one can resist indoctrination. If TIM was a reaper slave (someone who was also extrememly strong willed) there is no way Shepard could pull it off.

There's nothing to indoctrinate because Shepard isn't organic anymore when he makes that decision. He becomes something else.

Offworlder1 posted...

Most importantly is that Star brat supports synthesis, and control but opposes destroy, with it being the reaper controller/hive mind/conscious logic says to go with the option it does not want. Having synthesis or control benefits Star brat some how or it would be impartial, so choosing destroy is very clearly the right decision.

Control doesn't benefit the Catalyst at all. You're replacing him.

vocedelmorte posted...

Its a matter of choosing lesser evil cause other endings are far worse. You don't have an option to save 'good' AI, thats the point

Saying these endings have a point is giving them too much credit.

vocedelmorte posted...

You don't see it ? He clearly don't want you to choose destroy, as he make points of why you better off choosing other two outcomes

He only does that for Synthesis because he views that as his end goal. Even then he isn't able to do it himself. He needs Shepard to want to do it. He doesn't really argue very hard for it either.
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Darmik posted...

He doesn't really argue very hard for it either.

The point being that it still argues for it. Why would anyone trust a Reaper AI at this point?
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

He doesn't really argue very hard for it either.

The point being that it still argues for it. Why would anyone trust a Reaper AI at this point?

You have to trust it for any ending that isn't refusal.
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Darmik posted...

You have to trust it for any ending that isn't refusal.

No, if you choose Destroy you're simply sticking to the mission and not doing shit that happens to be very convenient to the Reapers. It has nothing to do with that AI since you're sticking to what you have built the Crucible for.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

You have to trust it for any ending that isn't refusal.

No, if you choose Destroy you're simply sticking to the mission and not doing shit that happens to be very convenient to the Reapers. It has nothing to do with that AI since you're sticking to what you have built the Crucible for.

The Crucible was built to stop the Reapers. That happens in any of the three main endings.

The Catalyst only has one goal in mind. To try and find peace between organics and synthetics and it went wrong.

Shepard: You said youre the Catalyst but what are you?

Catalyst: A construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem. I was created to bring balance. To be the Catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.

Shepard: So youre just an AI?

Catalyst: In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.

Shepard: But you were created?

Catalyst: Correct.

Shepard: By who?

Catalyst: By ones who recognized that conflict would always arise between synthetics and organics. I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life. To establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict. So a new solution was required.

Then when Shepard enters the equation;

Shepard: What do you know about the crucible?

Catalyst: The device you refer to as the crucible is little more than a powers source. However in combination with the citadel and the relays it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design.

Shepard: Who designed it?

Catalyst: You would not know them and there is not enough time to explain. We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago. With each passing cycle the design has no doubt evolved.

Shepard: Why didn't you stop it?

Catalyst: We believed the concept had been eradicated. Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realised.

Were just trying to survive!

Shepard: But youre taking away our future, without future we have no hope. Without hope we might as well be machines, programmed to do as we are told.

Catalyst: You have hope, more than you think. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution wont work any more.

Shepard: So now what?

Catalyst: We find a new solution.

Shepard: Why are you telling me this? Why Help me?

Catalyst: You have altered the variables. Shepard: What do you mean?

Shepard: The crucible changed me, created new... possibilities. But I cant make them happen. If there is to be a new solution. You must act. It is now in your power to destroy us. But be warned, others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic.

I want details.

Shepard: What exactly will happen?

Catalyst: Your crucible device appear to be largely intact. However the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected. But those who survive should have little difficulty in repairing the damage... There will still be loses but no more that what has already been lost.

That's it. He's not some complex character that's trying to trick Shepard into doing anything. He's laying out the facts and following his programming as he was originally designed to do. If Shepard uses the Crucible to reset artificial life instead of organic life that's still a solution from his perspective.
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Darmik posted...

That's like saying the Reapers don't commit genocide because they bring organics back each cycle. EDI and the Geth are dead.

The reapers wipe out the race the race is never brought back or given a revival at any point, reapers do not seed worlds with organics they only kill them and the "primitives" who have not reached a certain tech level are spared. Edi and the geth can literally be recreated to being nearly the same as before as the knowledge is there along with "back ups" most likely.

Darmik posted...

There's nothing to indoctrinate because Shepard isn't organic anymore when he makes that decision. He becomes something else

If that were true the reapers would have been trying to get Shepard on their side in ME 2, they do not nor do they try in ME 3, also Shepard is still mostly organic, he was not recreated as a cyborg or a machine.

Darmik posted...

Control doesn't benefit the Catalyst at all. You're replacing him.

The reapers surviving is his goal, as long as the reapers are not destroyed he accomplishes his goal, not hard to understand.
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Offworlder1 posted...

The reapers wipe out the race the race is never brought back or given a revival at any point, reapers do not seed worlds with organics they only kill them and the "primitives" who have not reached a certain tech level are spared. Edi and the geth can literally be recreated to being nearly the same as before as the knowledge is there along with "back ups" most likely.

Yes they are. They're absorbed into being a new Reaper. Remember the Mass Effect 2 final boss?

What backups are you talking about? Why would they be spared? They could create new synthetic life but that doesn't mean they're able to resurrect the Geth or EDI. It would be something new. Just like what Reapers do with organics.

Offworlder1 posted...

If that were true the reapers would have been trying to get Shepard on their side in ME 2, they do not nor do they try in ME 3, also Shepard is still mostly organic, he was not recreated as a cyborg or a machine.

I'm talking about when he does Control. His body is disintegrated and he essentially becomes the Catalyst. There's nothing to indoctrinate. Shepard himself can now theoretically indoctrinate others. He becomes the Reapers.

Offworlder1 posted...

The reapers surviving is his goal, as long as the reapers are not destroyed he accomplishes his goal, not hard to understand.

His goal is to find peace between organics and synthetics. Reapers were his initial solution. He considers Reapers to be a fusion of both organics and synthetics.
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The thing I hate about these debates is it relies to much on meta choices and knowing what is going to happen.

Honestly, picking all the "perfect" choices is boring.
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Darmik posted...

I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life. To establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict. So a new solution was required.

When the best "solution" Star brat came up with was mass genocide of organics through the reapers it's clear as day the fucking thing is morally bankrupt.

Darmik posted...

You must act. It is now in your power to destroy us. But be warned, others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic.

This is clearly Star brat trying to manipulate you into thinking "destroy is bad", it clearly only cares that SYNTHETICS will be wiped out, and then tries to scare Shepard with the old "you might die too so this is not a good choice" as if Shepard is not willing to make the sacrifice of their life to permanently wipe out the reapers. Star brat only gives a fuck about synthetics and it's world destroying reapers surviving not organics or "peace".
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Offworlder1 posted...

When the best "solution" Star brat came up with was mass genocide of organics through the reapers it's clear as day the fucking thing is morally bankrupt.

It doesn't have morals. It's a pretty typical "I gave an AI a directive and it took it to its most extreme" trope

But that doesn't mean it's some master manipulator. Ironically it's probably the most simple AI of the entire series.

Offworlder1 posted...

This is clearly Star brat trying to manipulate you into thinking "destroy is bad", it clearly only cares that SYNTHETICS will be wiped out, and then tries to scare Shepard with the old "you might die too so this is not a good choice" as if Shepard is not willing to make the sacrifice of their life to permanently wipe out the reapers. Star brat only gives a fuck about synthetics and it's world destroying reapers surviving not organics or "peace".

If he's trying to scare Shepard he's not going to say "But those who survive should have little difficulty in repairing the damage... There will still be loses but no more that what has already been lost."

Nothing he says for Destroy is a lie. Of course there's eventually going to be conflict between organics and synthetics. He was designed because that kept happening. He doesn't lie once in his whole dialogue sequence. This could have been up for debate before the EC but not anymore.

Again you seem to be missing that he doesn't consider the Reapers to be synthetic life. He doesn't give a fuck about the Geth or EDI and most certainly doesn't value them over organics.

What the Reapers currently are get wiped out in all three primary endings because he is moving to a new solution. He's basically the Siri of genocide and Shepard is there to give a new command.
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Offworlder1 posted...

This is clearly Star brat trying to manipulate you into thinking "destroy is bad", it clearly only cares that SYNTHETICS will be wiped out, and then tries to scare Shepard with the old "you might die too so this is not a good choice" as if Shepard is not willing to make the sacrifice of their life to permanently wipe out the reapers. Star brat only gives a fuck about synthetics and it's world destroying reapers surviving not organics or "peace".

Basically all this.

"They will go right back to war"

How does he know? Based on what? This is the only time he makes a long term future prediction. You're given a detailed explanation of what will happen if you pick the other two but he doesn't give you warnings about a potential grim future.
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Darmik posted...

He becomes the Reapers.

You just answered why Star brat supports "Control", Shepard becomes a reaper and the reapers SURVIVE.

Darmik posted...

Yes they are. They're absorbed into being a new Reaper. Remember the Mass Effect 2 final boss?

Being turned into a reaper is NOT surviving it is being assimilated into the reapers with who you are wiped from existence, the final boss of ME 2 is created from the bio matter of the people literally killed via liquidation. An example is Kelly if you did not save the crew in time, she is fucking killed there is no getting her back or resurrecting her, she was melted down into matter to be used like when you mix butter and eggs, and dough to make food. The butter is "there" but it will never be the same as it originally was nor is there a way to "reverse" the process.

Darmik posted...

His goal is to find peace between organics and synthetics. Reapers were his initial solution. He considers Reapers to be a fusion of both organics and synthetics.

That is not peace, that is killing organics and using the dead leftovers to create a fucking freak show nightmare, Star brat's "solution" was not peace it was kill the organics and use the raw material to make new reapers, only synthetics benefit from that.
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And yeah that's another thing. Knowing how reapers are made, why the fuck would you consider control to be anything but the absolute worst ending?

"We just killed Hitler, now what?"
"Well I was thinking we just leave the camps open but it's okay because I'm a good guy and in control of them"
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Offworlder1 posted...

This is clearly Star brat trying to manipulate you into thinking "destroy is bad", it clearly only cares that SYNTHETICS will be wiped out, and then tries to scare Shepard with the old "you might die too so this is not a good choice" as if Shepard is not willing to make the sacrifice of their life to permanently wipe out the reapers. Star brat only gives a fuck about synthetics and it's world destroying reapers surviving not organics or "peace".

Basically all this.

"They will go right back to war"

How does he know? Based on what? This is the only time he makes a long term future prediction. You're given a detailed explanation of what will happen if you pick the other two but he doesn't give you warnings about a potential grim future.

He explains this;

Shepard: You said youre the Catalyst but what are you?

Catalyst: A construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem. I was created to bring balance. To be the Catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.

Shepard: So youre just an AI?

Catalyst: In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.

Shepard: But you were created?

Catalyst: Correct.

Shepard: By who?

Catalyst: By ones who recognized that conflict would always arise between synthetics and organics. I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life. To establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict. So a new solution was required.

Shepard: The Reapers?

Catalyst: Precisely.

He doesn't give a prediction for the other two because he hasn't experienced them. Control is decided by Shepard and Synthesis is something new.

Offworlder1 posted...

You just answered why Star brat supports "Control", Shepard becomes a reaper and the reapers SURVIVE.

No they don't. They become something new controlled by Shepard. The Catalyst is gone.

Offworlder1 posted...

Being turned into a reaper is NOT surviving it is being assimilated into the reapers with who you are wiped from existence, the final boss of ME 2 is created from the bio matter of the people literally killed via liquidation. An example is Kelly if you did not save the crew in time, she is fucking killed there is no getting her back or resurrecting her, she was melted down into matter to be used like when you mix butter and eggs, and dough to make food. The butter is "there" but it will never be the same as it originally was nor is there a way to "reverse" the process.

You're using human logic. I'm explaining the Catalysts logic. I'm not saying he's right.

Offworlder1 posted...

That is not peace, that is killing organics and using the dead leftovers to create a fucking freak show nightmare, Star brat's "solution" was not peace it was kill the organics and use the raw material to make new reapers, only synthetics benefit from that.

Like I said he was an AI giving a command that went wrong.

That doesn't go against what I said against the Geth and EDI though. He doesn't give a crap about them either. Everything gets assimilated to the reapers under the Catalyst.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

And yeah that's another thing. Knowing how reapers are made, why the fuck would you consider control to be anything but the absolute worst ending?

"We just killed Hitler, now what?"
"Well I was thinking we just leave the camps open but it's okay because I'm a good guy and in control of them"

Because Paragon Shepard is literally Space Jesus who already had to decide the fate of species.
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Darmik posted...

The Crucible was built to stop the Reapers.

Now you're being dishonest.
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Have you ever heard of "being subtle" Darmik, I'd think Star brat who has seen and tried "peace" and seen conflict between organics and synthetics might have figured out direct threats don't always work. Star brat clearly wants the reapers to keep existing and they were willing to make a deal with the geth twice. First time the heretics thought "reapers are cool gods" and the reapers said "yeah you can fight as our soldiers, then in ME 2 and 3 the "good geth" make a deal with the reapers and retain who and what they are.

Indoctrinated races are always destroyed we learn from Javik yet the geth get two times to serve the reapers without losing their identity and are enhanced by the reapers. That is clearly the reapers showing they favor synthetics, and Star brat deciding the geth are useful without being "reaperfied".

Star brat's reaper control and the reapers letting the synthetic geth be on their side with minimum changes shows they only give a damn about synthetics and are fine with organics being wiped out.
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The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated.

Just throwing this out there.
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Darmik posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

And yeah that's another thing. Knowing how reapers are made, why the fuck would you consider control to be anything but the absolute worst ending?

"We just killed Hitler, now what?"
"Well I was thinking we just leave the camps open but it's okay because I'm a good guy and in control of them"

Because Paragon Shepard is literally Space Jesus who already had to decide the fate of species.

Because of artificial Sophie's choice bullshit that makes even telltale games look non rail roaded.

Like in ME1 you don't even get a chance to save both Ashley and Kaiden. And you're also guaranteed to save whichever one you want to save.

The game does not give you meaningful options. It's standard Bioware dichotomy.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

The Crucible was built to stop the Reapers.

Now you're being dishonest.

They didn't even know what it did. If it stops the Reapers genocide it's mission accomplished. Which happens in all three main endings.
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Also, I want to point out that in the refusal ending I'm pretty sure it's implied that the next species of space faring people didn't control or synthesize, but actually destroyed the Reapers thanks to the information Liara left behind.
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Offworlder1 posted...

Have you ever heard of "being subtle" Darmik, I'd think Star brat who has seen and tried "peace" and seen conflict between organics and synthetics might have figured out direct threats don't always work. Star brat clearly wants the reapers to keep existing and they were willing to make a deal with the geth twice. First time the heretics thought "reapers are cool gods" and the reapers said "yeah you can fight as our soldiers, then in ME 2 and 3 the "good geth" make a deal with the reapers and retain who and what they are.

Indoctrinated races are always destroyed we learn from Javik yet the geth get two times to serve the reapers without losing their identity and are enhanced by the reapers. That is clearly the reapers showing they favor synthetics, and Star brat deciding the geth are useful without being "reaperfied".

Star brat's reaper control and the reapers letting the synthetic geth be on their side with minimum changes shows they only give a damn about synthetics and are fine with organics being wiped out.

I've heard of being subtle.

Mass Effect is never subtle about anything. Dunno why that would suddenly change in the last three minutes. Especially since all of the endings confirm that the Catalyst tells the truth.
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You clearly don't understand that "control" simply hands Shepard control of the reapers, they still exist as they are, an example would be a person driving a car, driver 1 is a crazy killer who runs people over, the car is controlled by the driver. Driver 1 eventually decides to give the keys to Driver 2 who is a saint and would not harm any living being, the car does not change only the driver and the intent.

Difference with the reapers is they do have intelligence, and we know reaper tech indoctrinates people, there is no way to know if "good Shepard" can be corrupted, damaged, or fucked with since the "control" ending makes him an A.I. with the same morals and logic as "organic living Shepard.
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Darmik posted...

I've heard of being subtle.

Mass Effect is never subtle about anything. Dunno why that would suddenly change in the last three minutes. Especially since all of the endings confirm that the Catalyst tells the truth.

There's a bit of a difference between telling the truth and honesty. Hard to pinpoint exactly where the line is in some cases, but you can tell the truth while being dishonest and it's a very common tactic used by people especially after they've been caught lying.

Let's say there are two cakes on the table, lemon, and strawberry cream. And I want the strawberry shortcake one. But I don't say I want the strawberry cream one. I say "I had the lemon cake a couple months ago and it was delicious" or "the strawberry cake has a lot more calories and fat than the lemon one" because I want you to take the lemon cake.

It's truthful, but dishonest.
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Swagnificent119 posted...

Also, I want to point out that in the refusal ending I'm pretty sure it's implied that the next species of space faring people didn't control or synthesize, but actually destroyed the Reapers thanks to the information Liara left behind.

I just checked and outside of maybe the characters not having a weird green glow to them I don't think it implies anything else other than they succeeded.

They could have found a more ideal solution since they'd know what the Catalyst would be potentially though. Hard to say.
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The entire last part of the game once you get to Star brat has been confirmed to have been sabotaged since Casy Hudson and some other people not the main writers decided at the last minute to pull some bullshit, this is not a rumor but a fact.

Casey Hudson even said "the endings will NOT be choose A,B, or C" in a published article among other things yet what we got was "choose A,B, or C" for the endings.
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Offworlder1 posted...

You clearly don't understand that "control" simply hands Shepard control of the reapers, they still exist as they are, an example would be a person driving a car, driver 1 is a crazy killer who runs people over, the car is controlled by the driver. Driver 1 eventually decides to give the keys to Driver 2 who is a saint and would not harm any living being, the car does not change only the driver and the intent.

Difference with the reapers is they do have intelligence, and we know reaper tech indoctrinates people, there is no way to know if "good Shepard" can be corrupted, damaged, or fucked with since the "control" ending makes him an A.I. with the same morals and logic as "organic living Shepard.

We do know because the dialogue between Paragon and Renegade Shepard is different.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Darmik posted...

I've heard of being subtle.

Mass Effect is never subtle about anything. Dunno why that would suddenly change in the last three minutes. Especially since all of the endings confirm that the Catalyst tells the truth.

There's a bit of a difference between telling the truth and honesty. Hard to pinpoint exactly where the line is in some cases, but you can tell the truth while being dishonest and it's a very common tactic used by people especially after they've been caught lying.

Let's say there are two cakes on the table, lemon, and strawberry cream. And I want the strawberry shortcake one. But I don't say I want the strawberry cream one. I say "I had the lemon cake a couple months ago and it was delicious" or "the strawberry cake has a lot more calories and fat than the lemon one" because I want you to take the lemon cake.

It's truthful, but dishonest.

Sure. But there's nothing that really shows the Catalyst does anything like this. There aren't any examples of him purposefully leaving out information.
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Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

The Crucible was built to stop the Reapers.

Now you're being dishonest.

They didn't even know what it did. If it stops the Reapers genocide it's mission accomplished. Which happens in all three main endings.

They were building it to destroy the Reapers. The entirety of the series is about destroying the Reapers. We've seen the two other options fail spectacularly. Destroying the Reapers is the mission. There is no wiggle room for another interpretation.
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Darmik posted...

There aren't any examples of him purposefully leaving out information.

Suddenly the Reapers have never been dishonest. Honestly it seems to me that you're indoctrinated.
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Darmik posted...

We do know because the dialogue between Paragon and Renegade Shepard is different.

And?
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dave_is_slick posted...

They were building it to destroy the Reapers. The entirety of the series is about destroying the Reapers. We've seen the two other options fail spectacularly. Destroying the Reapers is the mission. There is no wiggle room for another interpretation.

Again they didn't even know what it was. They knew they needed the Catalyst to use it and that was about it. What ended up being the Catalyst again?

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

There aren't any examples of him purposefully leaving out information.

Suddenly the Reapers have never been dishonest. Honestly it seems to me that you're indoctrinated.

The Catalyst is his own thing. If he didn't want Shepard to destroy the Reapers he would stop him from doing it. He doesn't because he's not an agent of the Reapers.

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

We do know because the dialogue between Paragon and Renegade Shepard is different.

And?

So we know that Shepard does indeed have influence over the Reapers in the Control ending and that his morals carry over to his new form.
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I hope this has proven to people destroy is the only good ending and the most paragon choice you can make.
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We created synthetics to destroy organics before they create synthetics that destroy organics
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Darmik posted...

What ended up being the Catalyst again?

Something that doesn't matter as the mission was to destroy them. Shep has no reason whatsoever to think the other choices would work when he's seen them fail, with one failing RIGHT BEFORE WE MEET THE AI!

Darmik posted...

He doesn't because he's not an agent of the Reapers.

It either created or controls them. Again with the dishonesty.
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They should've just added in a proper happy ending where the combined efforts of the galactic forces are able to defeat the Reapers, even if it required some sort of MacGuffin to do so.

Trite, sure, but the endings they wrote don't provide any sort of satisfying conclusion and have left the franchise written into a corner that they cannot escape without canonizing one of the endings. Which they have established they're unwilling to do.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Something that doesn't matter as the mission was to destroy them. Shep has no reason whatsoever to think the other choices would work when he's seen them fail, with one failing RIGHT BEFORE WE MEET THE AI!

In Mass Effect 1 your mission is to stop them from arriving at all.
In Mass Effect 2 your mission is to stop the Collectors from abducting humans
In Mass Effect 3 your mission is to win the war.

Saren wanted to be the Reapers slaves because he considered the war unwinnable and they might be spared if they surrendered. This lead to him being indoctrinated.

The Illusive Man wanted to use them because they're machines and he thinks there's a way to control them. This pursuit of power leads him to becoming indoctrinated.

None of these reflect what happens at the end of Mass Effect 3. The Catalyst lays out the choices for him and the game presents it all as the truth. Trying to interpret it as something more meaningful is your headcanon. You're looking for a twist that isn't there.

dave_is_slick posted...

It either created or controls them. Again with the dishonesty.

Yes. So he's his own thing. He's following a command given to him by the Leviathans and is going to follow the command given by Shepard. The Reapers are following the command given by the Catalyst.
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The Reapers are following the command given by the Catalyst.

Which means that it would be disadvantageous for Catalyst, if reapers are destroyed. Shepard takes control (or rather having an illusion of taking control) or performs synthesis are both actions that preserve reapers and catalyst.
Its easy to see bias in Catalyst's explanations of possible outcomes. If you don't see it, then there is nothing to discuss.

The reapers are a necessary evil.
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Bioware painted themselves into a corner with the Reapers. How do you save the galaxy from a group of sentient, omnipotent machines, who control the genesis of all civilization? If the reapers weren't as powerful as the narrative made them be, Bioware would have had an easier time of it. They were painting a masterpiece, and instead of finishing it, they just threw their paint at the canvas.
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Crepes posted...

The reapers are a necessary evil.

I have not seen such blatant shit posting, and bullshit lies like this one in a while.
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If we're going under the assumption that the Catalyst would simply do whatever it takes to win couldn't you argue that he could be manipulating Shepard into simply destroying the Crucible which ensures that the Reapers can never be defeated and he wins no matter what you do unless you pick Refuse? Why give an option where he loses? Why show Shepard how to do it?

vocedelmorte posted...

Which means that it would be disadvantageous for Catalyst, if reapers are destroyed. Shepard takes control (or rather having an illusion of taking control) or performs synthesis are both actions that preserve reapers and catalyst

The only goal the Catalyst has is to have peace between organics and synthetics. Again he's a simple AI that has interpreted that goal in an extreme way. Which is a common sci-fi trope. He doesn't have feelings like EDI or Legion do. He thinks on a different scale and has no real humanity or ambition.

The Crucible doesn't work without the Catalyst. Likewise the Catalyst needs Shepard's input to go in a new direction. That's about it. He doesn't have motivations outside of that. He's following a course that changes when Shepard enters that room.
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So to summarise the happiest Mass Effect ending is if you go by the 'Shepard is Space Jesus' interpretation.

He dies and is resurrected. He then proceeds to unify different cultures and start a new following before saving the galaxy and ascending to the Heaven and becoming a God himself. Leaving tales of his sacrifice to be told generations later.

Alternatively Shepard is so God damn seductive he wins the war by convincing the Reapers to let him inside them.
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