Current Events > My hardcore Bernie supporting friend just posted this meme on Facebook...

(+) Yeah! (+)

The unworkable Naive Ideas part really killed me.
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not just unique to social democrats, populists generally think this of libertarians as well. which is why republicans mix in the social conservatism.
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I'm a Bernie guy (not one of those nuts though) and I certainly don't like libertarianism, but that's lame. I feel there might be some potential in a joke there, but that doesn't work.
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"Unworkable naive ideas"

That's rich coming from a socialist
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Coffeebeanz posted...

"Unworkable naive ideas"

That's rich coming from a socialist

most american democratic socialists are pushing ideas that have been tested in europe and worked for decades

most american libertarians are pushing ideas that have been tested nowhere and worked for no one

most political hacks pretend democratic socialists are proposing soviet-style communism to discredit it
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Why can't leftists meme? Like at all?
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Libertarianism is dumb as hell though.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

"Unworkable naive ideas"

That's rich coming from a socialist

Also I'm glad you guys were able to communicate this idea through phones/computers/companies etc brought to you by capitalism.
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ledbowman posted...

Libertarianism is dumb as hell though.

I see you are one that hates personal freedom. Can I interest you in a totalitarian regime with complete govenerment control?
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

"Unworkable naive ideas"

That's rich coming from a socialist

Also I'm glad you guys were able to communicate this idea through phones/computers/companies etc brought to you by capitalism.

https://pics.me.me/we-should-improve-society-somewhat-yet-you-participate-in-society-19213023.png
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So unworkable naive ideas x5 basically.
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Antifar posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

"Unworkable naive ideas"

That's rich coming from a socialist

Also I'm glad you guys were able to communicate this idea through phones/computers/companies etc brought to you by capitalism.

https://pics.me.me/we-should-improve-society-somewhat-yet-you-participate-in-society-19213023.png

But these things wouldn't exist in a socialist society. The free market is the driving force behind these advances.

Stifling future advances is not improving society.

This is without even looking at the fact that private business will always be more efficient and less expensive than government and elevates everyone whereas government controls keep everyone down.
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They spelled misogyny wrong

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

ledbowman posted...

Libertarianism is dumb as hell though.

I see you are one that hates personal freedom. Can I interest you in a totalitarian regime with complete govenerment control?

See?
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

This is without even looking at the fact that private business will always be more efficient and less expensive than government

This is just plain not true. Compare U.S. healthcare costs to the costs borne by other countries where the government plays a significantly larger role. Hell, compare us to Cuba.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2014/12/22/cuba-cost-effective-healthcare/#76dfb4d55899
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CruelBuffalo posted...

They spelled misogyny wrong

It wasn't made by someone very smart. Privatization is the only thing that applies to libertarians.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Are you delusional or are you conflating Soviet socialism with Nordic Socialism for some other reason?

scandinavia is not socialist, it's socially democratic

https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/

shockthemonkey posted...

Are you delusional or are you conflating Soviet socialism with Nordic Socialism for some other reason?

Darkman124 posted...

most american democratic socialists are pushing ideas that have been tested in europe and worked for decades

most american libertarians are pushing ideas that have been tested nowhere and worked for no one

most political hacks pretend democratic socialists are proposing soviet-style communism to discredit it

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism is further distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism, whereas social democracy is supportive of reforms to capitalism.

In truth, social democracy is probably the more correct term for what most of us on the far left want.
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Antifar posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

This is without even looking at the fact that private business will always be more efficient and less expensive than government

This is just plain not true. Compare U.S. healthcare costs to the costs borne by other countries where the government plays a significantly larger role. Hell, compare us to Cuba.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2014/12/22/cuba-cost-effective-healthcare/#76dfb4d55899

It's pretty easy when being subsidized by the United States.

Plus we don't have a free market. Government plays a large roles and everything is hyperinflated through insurance companies. I would love to see the data on people that go in and say they don't have insurance and pay cash. They usually get it a lot cheaper and wouldn't get it cheaper still without intervention.
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

I would love to see the data on people that go in and say they don't have insurance and pay cash. They usually get it a lot cheaper and wouldn't get it cheaper still without intervention.

um, no. you don't get to negotiate as an individual.
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shockthemonkey posted...

SSJGodMawile posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Are you delusional or are you conflating Soviet socialism with Nordic Socialism for some other reason?

scandinavia is not socialist, it's socially democratic

https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/

Yes the semantics here are much more important than the details

through your unyielding passive-aggressiveness you completely missed the fucking point, because you don't know what socialism is

socialism requires the government to have full control over the means of production, and for this to happen it needs to appropriate private businesses and private property, as we've seen in venezuela, the most clear cut example of democratic socialism we have

scandinavian nations are categorically not socialist, because they have fucking market economies

Darkman124 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

I would love to see the data on people that go in and say they don't have insurance and pay cash. They usually get it a lot cheaper and wouldn't get it cheaper still without intervention.

um, no. you don't get to negotiate as an individual.

Ummm yes... Have you ever been to a doctor or hospital?
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50Blessings posted...

The alt-right have their own robot:

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Plus we don't have a free market.

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

But these things wouldn't exist in a socialist society. The free market is the driving force behind these advances.

hmm

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Ummm yes... Have you ever been to a doctor or hospital?

Yes. I have. Hospitals will be happy to set up payment plans, but they don't come down on individual price. You want that, they'll tell you to try the next place.

What they're accustomed to is people simply not paying the bill.
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Darkman124 posted...

most political hacks pretend democratic socialists are proposing soviet-style communism to discredit it

Darkman124 posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism is further distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism, whereas social democracy is supportive of reforms to capitalism.

In truth, social democracy is probably the more correct term for what most of us on the far left want.

you've just acknowledged that social democracy and democratic socialism are completely different systems. social democracy results in prosperous nations like norway and denmark, and democratic socialism results in authoritarian failures like venezuela because you're giving the government full control over the economy and eliminating the free market completely

social democracy isn't a far-left system, so if you support it, by calling yourself far-left you do nothing but hurt your own cause

SSJGodMawile posted...

you've just acknowledged that social democracy and democratic socialism are completely different systems. social democracy results in prosperous nations like norway and denmark, and democratic socialism results in authoritarian failures like venezuela because you're giving the government full control over the economy and eliminating the free market completely

social democracy isn't a far-left system, so if you support it, by calling yourself far-left you do nothing but hurt your own cause

Social democracy is far left in the US political spectrum. We on the far left of the US are mostly ideologically identical to social democrats.

I agree that it isn't a far left system overall. And I agree that it is different from democratic socialism.

The nature of Venezuela's "democracy" must be called into question when we try to use it as an example of democratic socialism, though.
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Darkman124 posted...

most american democratic socialists are pushing ideas that have been tested in europe and worked for decades

not in the american regulatory climate

never mind the fact that the reach of european governments are creating their own array of other social and economic problems

the best aspects of european systems often involve far less government, if any - unions negotiate wages so the government doesn't have to mandate them, while many of the healthcare systems - even if public - are far more streamlined to my understanding than the red-tape ridden "privatized" hellscape that we have
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

ledbowman posted...

Libertarianism is dumb as hell though.

I see you are one that hates personal freedom. Can I interest you in a totalitarian regime with complete govenerment control?

Do you really think youre in charge of anything, atm? Every system of governance can, has, and will be exploited by those in power to circumvent it and maintain that status quo. And I mean that in the least edgy way possible.
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LethalAffinity posted...

Why can't leftists meme? Like at all?

Because most leftists actually have full time jobs while most alt-righters are basement dwellers with nothing else to do.
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Darkman124 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Ummm yes... Have you ever been to a doctor or hospital?

Yes. I have. Hospitals will be happy to set up payment plans, but they don't come down on individual price. You want that, they'll tell you to try the next place.

What they're accustomed to is people simply not paying the bill.

Ive worked in a hospital you can most certainly reduce what you pay by a lot if you ask questions and negotiate.

mistalightbulb posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Plus we don't have a free market.

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

But these things wouldn't exist in a socialist society. The free market is the driving force behind these advances.

hmm

I suppose I should have said profit is the driving force behind those advancements and the free market makes that possible.

Further there is a lot more intervention in Healthcare than there is in most industries causing it to be not as free. Although still freer. That other places which is why we're at the forefront of the medical world despite costs that could be lowered by dropping the govenerment completely.
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EnragedSlith posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

ledbowman posted...

Libertarianism is dumb as hell though.

I see you are one that hates personal freedom. Can I interest you in a totalitarian regime with complete govenerment control?

Do you really think youre in charge of anything, atm? Every system of governance can, has, and will be exploited by those in power to circumvent it and maintain that status quo. And I mean that in the least edgy way possible.

No I think we should be. Where we are is far removed from the freedom the founders had in mind. It doesn't mean you don't fight every new transgression and you don't try and take back your rights.
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

ledbowman posted...

Libertarianism is dumb as hell though.

I see you are one that hates personal freedom. Can I interest you in a totalitarian regime with complete govenerment control?

what most american leftists fail to understand is that libertarianism (with the exception of perhaps radical implementations of hoppeanism) doesn't ban voluntary forms of socialism, which to the contrary are a humanist supplement to a laissez-faire system

but many american leftists (and indeed authoritarian collectivists in general) seem less concerned about bettering the condition of their fellow men and women than pretending to in order to seize wealth and maximize the de jure power of their ideological tribe
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TheMikh posted...

Darkman124 posted...

most american democratic socialists are pushing ideas that have been tested in europe and worked for decades

not in the american regulatory climate

never mind the fact that the reach of european governments are creating their own array of other social and economic problems

the best aspects of european systems often involve far less government, if any - unions negotiate wages so the government doesn't have to mandate them, while many of the healthcare systems - even if public - are far more streamlined to my understanding than the red-tape ridden "privatized" hellscape that we have

I honestly am not familiar enough with the differences in our regulatory environment and that of Europe's but the broader point is that creating a single payer system is a financially viable objective, and that's been at the center of the objective set of the group of folks who willingly take on the 'socialist' label in the US.

It may require changes to our regulatory environment to be viable. Sure.

Union argument is a good one--German unions don't receive government subsidies. It perhaps begs the question: why are unions thriving there and dying here?
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Darkman124 posted...

SSJGodMawile posted...

you've just acknowledged that social democracy and democratic socialism are completely different systems. social democracy results in prosperous nations like norway and denmark, and democratic socialism results in authoritarian failures like venezuela because you're giving the government full control over the economy and eliminating the free market completely

social democracy isn't a far-left system, so if you support it, by calling yourself far-left you do nothing but hurt your own cause

Social democracy is far left in the US political spectrum. We on the far left of the US are mostly ideologically identical to social democrats.

I agree that it isn't a far left system overall. And I agree that it is different from democratic socialism.

The nature of Venezuela's "democracy" must be called into question when we try to use it as an example of democratic socialism, though.

these are fair points, but in my view you'd be doing yourself a favor by removing yourself from the label of far-left

any sort of extreme label, whether it be far-left or far-right, has an inherently negative connotation and will make it more difficult for people to see your point of view

i think social democracy is the best system we could realistically have as of now and yet i wouldn't call myself far-left at all, nor would i consider you far-left

Darkman124 posted...

TheMikh posted...

Darkman124 posted...

most american democratic socialists are pushing ideas that have been tested in europe and worked for decades

not in the american regulatory climate

never mind the fact that the reach of european governments are creating their own array of other social and economic problems

the best aspects of european systems often involve far less government, if any - unions negotiate wages so the government doesn't have to mandate them, while many of the healthcare systems - even if public - are far more streamlined to my understanding than the red-tape ridden "privatized" hellscape that we have

I honestly am not familiar enough with the differences in our regulatory environment and that of Europe's but the broader point is that creating a single payer system is a financially viable objective, and that's been at the center of the objective set of the group of folks who willingly take on the 'socialist' label in the US.

It may require changes to our regulatory environment to be viable. Sure.

Union argument is a good one--German unions don't receive government subsidies. It perhaps begs the question: why are unions thriving there and dying here?

it seems as though the unions here either command too much political power in some states to the point where reforms have stagnated local economies, or are completely castrated in others putting most power in the hands of businesses, so there's very little union-business equilibrium in any given place
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SSJGodMawile posted...

these are fair points, but in my view you'd be doing yourself a favor by removing yourself from the label of far-left

any sort of extreme label, whether it be far-left or far-right, has an inherently negative connotation and will make it more difficult for people to see your point of view

i think social democracy is the best system we could realistically have as of now and yet i wouldn't call myself far-left at all, nor would i consider you far-left

tbh i mostly take on that label because i think i do an okay job speaking for the objectives of the 'far left' and i'd hate for those objectives to be associated with someone who's worse at it

i certainly don't think we're far-left on the global scheme, and i think far more americans agree with us than are represented politically--but in terms of political representation, 1-2% of senators and representatives are in line with our viewpoint. that would make us extremes within the US political system. not even nec. within the US as a whole.
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