Current Events > Is modern liberal culture almost entirely about norm breaking?

(+) Yeah! (+)

How often do you read that some movie star or pop culture figure has broken some yet another norm of gender, sexuality, or race to uproarious applause? "Subversive", "norm-breaker", "iconoclast", are but a few terms of praise bestowed on them as they crush the values of Middle America.

But who in America today is as truly and deeply a destroyer of norms as Donald J. Trump? See how many flee in the face of true subversion!

Perhaps some of our norms may have had value after all?

Naw dawg

Yes
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But your op was off base
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There is no such thing as "liberal culture."

Liberalism is just a position on some political issues.
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The norms are almost wholly the construction of liberals, and much of the liberal objection to Trump is about his violation of those norms. Liberals aren't much for subversion; you're thinking of progressives and leftists.

Alternatively, it's possible that some norms are held in higher regard than others.
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frozenshock posted...

There is no such thing as "liberal culture."

Liberalism is just a position on some political issues.

Keep telling yourself that
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Not all norms. A lot of people on the left want to reject what they see as Christian, white, and conservative norms.
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tennisdude818 posted...

Not all norms. A lot of people on the left want to reject what they see as Christian, white, and conservative norms.

Exactly, but they applaud norm-breaking almost as a good in itself. They break golden calves out of pleasure. Now Trump does the same to theirs. Where's the applause?

Antifar posted...

The norms are almost wholly the construction of liberals, and much of the liberal objection to Trump is about his violation of those norms. Liberals aren't much for subversion; you're thinking of progressives and leftists.

Alternatively, it's possible that some norms are held in higher regard than others.

I don't think the distinction is that clear-cut. Progressives and cultural leftists merely take the same impulses into overdrive.

Go to an art museum in a major city, and see how many times you can count descriptions of modern art using terms like "radical" or "subversive". These exhibits are seen by millions, and I really doubt the intended audiences are merely the far left. The "empowerment" ideology in opposition to traditional norms is mainstream.

Modern liberal culture is finding new ways to be offended.
Conservative culture is trying to maintain what they feel like they can be offended by.
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SageHarpuia posted...

frozenshock posted...

There is no such thing as "liberal culture."

Liberalism is just a position on some political issues.

Keep telling yourself that

Lol

In today's world, "liberal" is to conservatives what "muggles" is to wizards. Just a word they use to call anyone who doesn't fall in their little group. It's devoid of meaning.
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M_Live posted...

Society has a natural liberal bias, conservatives go against norms

Eh, depends on the subject. The nuclear family is seen as a conservative value, and its been pretty standard through history because children need caregivers and resources. Now that the State is willing to provide those resources for single moms, the scale has been tipped towards the other side. But is that really natural? Is it natural for me to be forced to pay for other peoples kids, and to therefore have fewer kids of my own?

Edit: a similar example would be mass migration in the presence of a huge welfare state. Millions of migrants are moving to Europe from the 3rd world, but would this natural human movement occur without the ability to obtain unearned resources?
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frozenshock posted...

SageHarpuia posted...

frozenshock posted...

There is no such thing as "liberal culture."

Liberalism is just a position on some political issues.

Keep telling yourself that

Lol

In today's world, "liberal" is to conservatives what "muggles" is to wizards. Just a word they use to call anyone who doesn't fall in their little group. It's devoid of meaning.

SageHarpuia posted...

Keep telling yourself that

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pedophilia is going to be the thing people try to normalize
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Liberals believe in normal things like equality.

Conservatives believe in off-the-wall shit like unsustainable economic systems and gays being sent to an eternity of torture simply for existing.
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KhanJohnny posted...

Naw dawg

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This is tangentially connected to the rise of post-modernism philosophies in the latter half of the twentieth century, which examined many of the societal norms that had been assumed to be natural and good for centuries and concluded that many of them weren't natural or healthy but were self-replicating rules governing social behavior that existed only to maintain the status quo.

One of the biggest relations there, was that the status quo was not ideologically neutral or apolitical, but that it eschewed politics that were most convenient for assuring it's continued survival, and that those politics were often openly hostile to people who feel outside it's definition of 'normal.'
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hollow_shrine posted...

This is tangentially connected to the rise of post-modernism philosophies in the latter half of the twentieth century, which examined many of the societal norms that had been assumed to be natural and good for centuries and concluded that many of them weren't natural or healthy but were self-replicating rules governing social behavior that existed only to maintain the status quo.

One of the biggest relations there, was that the status quo was not ideologically neutral or apolitical, but that it eschewed politics that were most convenient for assuring it's continued survival, and that those politics were often openly hostile to people who feel outside it's definition of 'normal.'

And liberals have replaced the statuo quo which might include some irrational norms, with a norm of subversion, which is quite self-defeating and ends in the dissolution of society.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Liberals believe in normal things like equality.

Conservatives believe in off-the-wall shit like unsustainable economic systems and gays being sent to an eternity of torture simply for existing.

There is nothing "normal" to humanity in the concept of equality.

tennisdude818 posted...

The nuclear family is seen as a conservative value, and its been pretty standard through history because children need caregivers and resources. Now that the State is willing to provide those resources for single moms, the scale has been tipped towards the other side. But is that really natural?

I think it's sad that nuclear family is seen as a "conservative" concept nowadays as it's been the bedrock of society since forever.

I hate to be the guy that harps on Hollywood and pop culture but look at the messages it sends. Broken homes, drugs and promiscuity are glorified like it's some sort of liberation. Beyonce sings about the virtues of failing in your relationships and chronic singledom then goes home to her husband and family. It's twisted, hypocritical shit. Look at the divorce rates, rampant drug addition and dysfunction.

It's not natural. It's egotism and selfish... imo.
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No.
It's about norm replacement.

Questionmarktarius posted...

No.
It's about norm replacement.

What are the new norms?

CrimsonRage posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Not all norms. A lot of people on the left want to reject what they see as Christian, white, and conservative norms.

it's almost as if those norms have a history of oppressing those that weren't those things or something

Thanks. That really clears up the lefts love affair with Islam.
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tennisdude818 posted...

CrimsonRage posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Not all norms. A lot of people on the left want to reject what they see as Christian, white, and conservative norms.

it's almost as if those norms have a history of oppressing those that weren't those things or something

Thanks. That really clears up the lefts love affair with Islam.

It should. If it isn't obvious, the vast majority of left-leaning Americans aren't oppressed by Islamic religious fundamentalists. So it makes sense that they would prioritize opposition to more local examples of fundamentalism.
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