Current Events > Isn't "Toxic Masculinity" about negatives of "man roles"?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The23rdMagus posted...

COVxy posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

COVxy posted...

I think people are ignoring the fact that 'toxic femininity" is essentially the bedrock cause for feminism...

Really strange to bring it up like it's some double standard.

Elaborate.

Feminism started as a movement fighting against harmful gender roles like expected housewife and what not. This is what the famous burning of the bras was about.

Ah, I see. I wasn't following for a moment.

That and don't forget the right to vote, go to university, work, own property, live alone, see a doctor, get medication, and be able to live independent as a woman.
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CyricZ posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

i think toxic femininity IS impactful. My gf is afraid of having sex before marriage because its not in alignment with what a "good girl" should do. she knows its BS, but it still bothers her enough and she has to work through it to get herself to do things.

she also feels guilty sometimes for being a career-first person, although she's within her rights to want that.

I don't think anyone's suggesting toxic femininity can't be impactful, and it should be addressed as an aspect of mental health, but it's more about internal struggles, and less about external harmful action. Or to put it another way, I don't think toxic femininity ever led to another person's death. Comparatively, toxic masculinity is more impactful.

lots of teenage girls (attempt to) commit suicide because of bullying from other girls

also many toxic behaviors by women encourage/enable toxic male behaviors (and vice versa). they are both responsible for the problems we have.

RIP Man Roles
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Fam_Fam posted...

lots of teenage girls (attempt to) commit suicide because of bullying from other girls

That's why I was careful to state "another person's" death. Toxic femininity typically doesn't kill people that aren't those that suffer from it.

Fam_Fam posted...

also many toxic behaviors by women encourage/enable toxic male behaviors (and vice versa). they are both responsible for the problems we have.

Ah, while that's an interesting point, I wasn't suggesting that women don't contribute to toxic masculinity. They very easily can. A wife who bullies her meek husband because he's not good in bed, for example.

Again, I'm not trying to cheapen these problems, but comparatively, I feel toxic masculinity has caused much greater harm, but more importantly, there's far less of a push to steer away from it.

As COVxy put it, feminism is the driving force against what would be called "toxic femininity". While I'm personally for efforts to improve the lives of men as well, there hasn't been a big societal push for it. Partly because the problems haven't been brought to any serious light, and partly because it seems that by and large men don't *want* those problems brought to serious light.
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CyricZ posted...

Well you clearly muddy the message when you add the adjectives "immature" and "petty".

So let's clear it up a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJniCCuqR4" data-time="

Coward of the County: #1 country song in 1980 by the famed Kenny Rogers.

While the song starts with the message of "you don't have to fight to be a man", the song ENDS with "sometimes you have to fight when you're a man". That message being that you SHOULD fight someone if you can convince yourself it's worthwhile enough of a cause. Sure, the cause was "his wife was raped by three men", but "Tommy" could have just as easily have been murdered by those three men for trying to fist fight them for her honor. OR he could have KILLED one or more of the three men and been guilty of murder.

And look at those comments, not supporting the first anti-violence message, but supporting the later pro-violence message.

Then think about all the cases in real life where someone (a woman typically) is wronged and the boyfriend's/husband's/father's response is to haul off and beat on the perpetrator. Screw the law. Screw morals. They feel justified in leveling pain on the bad guy. Then the man is considered a hero by many for that violence.

Think about that for a bit. Really think about it.

And it's hardly the only example.

I think that is an example of positive masculinity. Sometimes its morally justified to use violence against people who have harmed you or your family. I think so anyway.
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Esrac posted...

Sometimes its morally justified to use violence against people who have harmed you or your family. I think so anyway.

We have these things called "laws" that disagree with you.
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CyricZ posted...

Esrac posted...

Sometimes its morally justified to use violence against people who have harmed you or your family. I think so anyway.

We have these things called "laws" that disagree with you.

Laws can be wrong.
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I don't want to delete this topic, but I'm tired of getting notifications for it, lol
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CyricZ posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

lots of teenage girls (attempt to) commit suicide because of bullying from other girls

That's why I was careful to state "another person's" death. Toxic femininity typically doesn't kill people that aren't those that suffer from it.

Fam_Fam posted...

also many toxic behaviors by women encourage/enable toxic male behaviors (and vice versa). they are both responsible for the problems we have.

Ah, while that's an interesting point, I wasn't suggesting that women don't contribute to toxic masculinity. They very easily can. A wife who bullies her meek husband because he's not good in bed, for example.

Again, I'm not trying to cheapen these problems, but comparatively, I feel toxic masculinity has caused much greater harm, but more importantly, there's far less of a push to steer away from it.

As COVxy put it, feminism is the driving force against what would be called "toxic femininity". While I'm personally for efforts to improve the lives of men as well, there hasn't been a big societal push for it. Partly because the problems haven't been brought to any serious light, and partly because it seems that by and large men don't *want* those problems brought to serious light.

the bullying (caused by toxic femininity) leads to another person's death...

and it is your opinion that toxic masculinity is a bigger problem, and i don't necessarily disagree. i just don't think that matters at all. both are a problem, and they are connected. both need to be fixed, together.

Esrac posted...

Laws can be wrong.

I disagree in the case of causing harm.

Animal Farm by George Orwell (1945)

One of the commandments of the society after they overthrew the humans was "No animal shall kill any other animal". After a revolution and summary execution an addendum "without cause" was added to that commandment. While the downfall of the animal society was foreseeable early on, this was the first obvious turning point.

Changing the laws of assault and murder to accommodate vigilante justice is a slippery slope that I don't care to slide down.

Fam_Fam posted...

and it is your opinion that toxic masculinity is a bigger problem, and i don't necessarily disagree. i just don't think that matters at all. both are a problem, and they are connected. both need to be fixed, together.

As I said earlier, there is already in place a societal push to address "toxic femininity". There is no such plan for toxic masculinity currently.
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toxic masculinity is stuff like, men feeling ashamed to cry and express feelings. Or feeling forced to act in a certain way because they're man. Like, they can't admit to liking a TV show if it seems girly. Or they're afraid to pursue certain professions because they're associated with women.

Basically, it is the masculinity that causes people problems. It isn't some sort of declaration of war against manhood in general though. Just the toxic parts associated with it.

But if you guys would rather feel ashamed that you want to be a nurse or bake cakes or stuff like that, go right on ahead. :u
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