Current Events > Transexualism no longer considered a mental disorder by WHO

(+) Yeah! (+)

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Does your broken arm identify as a leg?
---

ColdOne666 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Broken arm is an actual real thing.

"Science!"
"Trans people don't exist!"
---

Another victory

Garioshi posted...

ITT: People act like they know more than the World Health Organization and all the scientists that it employs.

That's an appeal to authority fallacy, which is only valid if everyone in the discussion agrees on the reliability of the authority, since there could be arguments made to poke holes in the claim that the authority being cited is reliable/trustworthy.

I'm not familiar enough with the WHO to really ascertain them on the whole but let me put it this way: just because the WHO says a thing, or denies something, doesn't make them right about it.
---

Nomadic View posted...

The DSM-5 is the book used to educate doctors on how to treat patients with various types of mental illness. Does the DSM-5 still have it listed as a mental disorder?

It hasn't been in the DSM since the 70's, I believe. Gender dysphoria is still there but gender dysphoria isn't diagnosed simply because one is trans. There must be severe social or psychological distress as a result of being trans to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
---

Funbazooka posted...

That's an appeal to authority fallacy, which is only valid if everyone in the discussion agrees on the reliability of the authority, since there could be arguments made to poke holes in the claim that the authority being cited is reliable/trustworthy.

I'm not familiar enough with the WHO to really ascertain them on the whole but let me put it this way: just because the WHO says a thing, or denies something, doesn't make them right about it.

That's kind of an awkward way of putting it. Everyone in a discussion doesn't have to agree on the reliability of the authority. If a group of anti-vaxxers all agreed that the CDC was junk doesn't mean it's rooted in fact by their consensus.

That's why pointing out something is an appeal to authority fallacy is kind of...silly. That in and of itself doesn't mean anything. All it does is give people who think their layperson opinion is intellectually equivalent to consensus from professional organisations. It's just...naive.
---

This is the way the world's been going, so of course they'll say it's not a mental disorder. Even though the suicide rates are insane. It's the same mental disorder as this man had

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRr94ssnQo" data-time="

And guess what, he killed himself.
---

KillerKhan420 posted...

so of course they'll say it's not a mental disorder. Even though the suicide rates are insane.

Mixing causality there, buddy.
---

This isn't good
---

Another victory

KillerKhan420 posted...

This is the way the world's been going, so of course they'll say it's not a mental disorder. Even though the suicide rates are insane. It's the same mental disorder as this man had

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRr94ssnQo" data-time="

And guess what, he killed himself.

this

and whats sad is how so many people act shocked that giving into to the mental disorder doesn't solve the problem and those people end up going crazy.

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Makes sense. Any reasonable attempt at categorization will make the distinction between transgender and gender dysphoria.

Conflict posted...

kayoticdreamz posted...

and whats sad is how so many people act shocked that giving into to the mental disorder doesn't solve the problem and those people end up going crazy.

Has it ever occurred to you that a giant amount of the suicide rates are attributed to your types in society treating them like garbage

Has it ever occurred to you that giving a drunk more alcohol is a bad thing?

KillerKhan420 posted...

This is the way the world's been going, so of course they'll say it's not a mental disorder. Even though the suicide rates are insane. It's the same mental disorder as this man had

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRr94ssnQo" data-time="

And guess what, he killed himself.

I'm nothing like that. That guy was insane. I'm not.
---

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

Except having a penis isnt a physical problem, lol.

Why do people seem to think that altering the body surgical changes you into whatever you perceive? An artificial vagina cant attach to a womb and ovaries and all that stuff. You dont suddenly become a woman just cuz you cut your dick off.

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

lol, nice

Conflict posted...

I like how you completely dodged my point and basically admitted you have no counter argument to it

Spoiler alert; transgender people aren't killing themselves just cause of the disorder itself. The alienation and the treatment from friends and family are

Exactly. I was accepted by my family. 0 suicidal thoughts.
---

Conflict posted...

I like how you completely dodged my point and basically admitted you have no counter argument to it

Spoiler alert; transgender people aren't killing themselves just cause of the disorder itself. The alienation and the treatment from friends and family are causing that

well, that's not exactly true. the chemical imbalance fucking sucks (for a lot of people. it's not universal, though). But that's only another point in the favor of reasonably timed HRT, not against it.
---

Is it a coincidence that homosexuality and transgenderism are no longer recognized as mental disorders, when people from those two groups gain political power?

Wowie, I wonder if politics has anything to do with this??

myzz7 posted...

over 40% suicide rate and WHO says its fine. completely mentally normal.

yeah okay.

Correlation does not equal causation.
---

KhanJohnny posted...

Is it a coincidence that homosexuality and transgenderism are no longer recognized as mental disorders, when people from those two groups gain political power?

Wowie, I wonder if politics has anything to do with this??

Are black people and women in general suffering a mental disorder? They're other groups that were treated as inferior until they weren't
---

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

Except having a penis isnt a physical problem, lol.

Why do people seem to think that altering the body surgical changes you into whatever you perceive? An artificial vagina cant attach to a womb and ovaries and all that stuff. You dont suddenly become a woman just cuz you cut your dick off.

If your brain doesnt think you should have a penis and feels natural by having surgery to correct that then how is it not a physical problem? Changing the physical structure solves the problem without any issues other than social nonsense from shitheads.

What neither side gets about the other side: One side think the body is the ultimate authority on one's gender. The other side thinks the brain is.

That's literally what 95% of this comes down to. (The other 5% generally being debates about whether reassignment should be tax-funded.)
---

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

Except having a penis isnt a physical problem, lol.

Why do people seem to think that altering the body surgical changes you into whatever you perceive? An artificial vagina cant attach to a womb and ovaries and all that stuff. You dont suddenly become a woman just cuz you cut your dick off.

If your brain doesnt think you should have a penis and feels natural by having surgery to correct that then how is it not a physical problem? Changing the physical structure solves the problem without any issues other than social nonsense from shitheads.

The problem is a disparity between reality and the image of self. The brain is not some perfect machine. It can be affected by all manner of disorders. Self mutilation doesnt alter what you really are and never will. It just makes it easier to play pretend.

jesus fucking christ, how are people's bodies so gods damned fucking sacred to you while their fucking brains mean nothing? This argument makes exactly zero gods damned sense. Who are we, really? Because you are not your fucking dick, and neither am I.
---

Let's just, for a second, assume they do remain their birth sex and are just "pretending" to be the other sex.

... so what? Unless you're in a romantic or sexual relationship with them, why exactly does it matter? Let them do their thing, and you do yours.

(Once again, it can be another matter if people are demanding that taxpayer funds cover reassignment surgery, but that's the only point that there's really any reason to debate.)
---

Kensaimage posted...

The problem is a disparity between reality and the image of self.

So while there is a universality to certain laws (in physics for example), a lot of scientific theory is really nothing more than a functional model rather than a true representation of reality.

One could argue that since we perceive the world through our senses and our brain filters information such that our actual experience is never a true representation of "the real world", but really just an accurate simulation, so too are scientific theories simply models of how "real world" phenomena work.

Look at it this way, Newton's mechanics are a valid way of calculating projectile motion. It's pretty damn accurate in a lot of contexts too. It's just when you try to apply it to GPS it fails because it does not account for special relativity. Einstein's relativity is "truer" to reality, but time will tell if some other model will account for some "deeper" physics that we do not interact with on a function level yet (after all, they didn't have the capabilities for satellites in Newton's time...goes without saying).

Given this problem of epistemology that philosophy has wrestled with for millenia, science kind of takes an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to the problem and says the "trueness" of phenomena are not that important. The Bohr model of an atom is exactly that--a model. It's merely a way to conceptualize the phenomena and relate it to things for the purpose of doing something with those predictions.

When you apply this dynamic approach to reality to the social and psychological realities of human experience, a concrete conception of biological gender is not really...that important.

As technology improves, if the lines get further blurred and distinction matters less, can you say it is no longer grounded in reality? After all, we're all born "default female" until some genes in the Y chromosome are expressed during development, which then diverts into a male phenotype. But hormonal therapy reverses some of these secondary sexual characteristics and sexual reassignment surgery creates function and aesthetic where there used to be none. When gene modification technology improves, that line will be even more blurred. The conceptions people use to reject transgenderism can in all likelihood be modified as well.

We already have robotic limbs that can actually be controlled by your brain. If we're in the dawn of "cyborgs" I think modifying your fucking gender isn't that fucking far fetched. And I mean if it doesn't directly pertain to you, why so invested in an old idea being so right?
---

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

Except having a penis isnt a physical problem, lol.

Why do people seem to think that altering the body surgical changes you into whatever you perceive? An artificial vagina cant attach to a womb and ovaries and all that stuff. You dont suddenly become a woman just cuz you cut your dick off.

If your brain doesnt think you should have a penis and feels natural by having surgery to correct that then how is it not a physical problem? Changing the physical structure solves the problem without any issues other than social nonsense from shitheads.

The problem is a disparity between reality and the image of self. The brain is not some perfect machine. It can be affected by all manner of disorders. Self mutilation doesnt alter what you really are and never will. It just makes it easier to play pretend.

So a person functions perfectly after a physical change and youre still bitching? Thats on you, friend.

Says who? Take that cat guy for example. He modified the hell out of himself and still committed suicide.

Im also not bitching just cuz I have a different opinion. Its a social forum. Youre gonna get opposing opinions from time to time.

Nomadic View posted...

The DSM-5 is the book used to educate doctors on how to treat patients with various types of mental illness. Does the DSM-5 still have it listed as a mental disorder?

No, and it never did.

Kensaimage posted...

Says who? Take that cat guy for example. He modified the hell out of himself and still committed suicide.

It's almost like a human seeing themselves as the wrong sex and seeing themselves as the wrong species might be different issues.
---

If it requires surgery to correct, it's a disease.
A chunk of my intestines had to be removed at the age of approximately two weeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyloric_stenosis

Yet, I don't demand a CE hugbox for it.

BlameAnesthesia posted...

Kensaimage posted...

The problem is a disparity between reality and the image of self.

So while there is a universality to certain laws (in physics for example), a lot of scientific theory is really nothing more than a functional model rather than a true representation of reality.

One could argue that since we perceive the world through our senses and our brain filters information such that our actual experience is never a true representation of "the real world", but really just an accurate simulation, so too are scientific theories simply models of how "real world" phenomena work.

Look at it this way, Newton's mechanics are a valid way of calculating projectile motion. It's pretty damn accurate in a lot of contexts too. It's just when you try to apply it to GPS it fails because it does not account for special relativity. Einstein's relativity is "truer" to reality, but time will tell if some other model will account for some "deeper" physics that we do not interact with on a function level yet (after all, they didn't have the capabilities for satellites in Newton's time...goes without saying).

Given this problem of epistemology that philosophy has wrestled with for millenia, science kind of takes an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to the problem and says the "trueness" of phenomena are not that important. The Bohr model of an atom is exactly that--a model. It's merely a way to conceptualize the phenomena and relate it to things for the purpose of doing something with those predictions.

When you apply this dynamic approach to reality to the social and psychological realities of human experience, a concrete conception of biological gender is not really...that important.

As technology improves, if the lines get further blurred and distinction matters less, can you say it is no longer grounded in reality? After all, we're all born "default female" until some genes in the Y chromosome are expressed during development, which then diverts into a male phenotype. But hormonal therapy reverses some of these secondary sexual characteristics and sexual reassignment surgery creates function and aesthetic where there used to be none. When gene modification technology improves, that line will be even more blurred. The conceptions people use to reject transgenderism can in all likelihood be modified as well.

We already have robotic limbs that can actually be controlled by your brain. If we're in the dawn of "cyborgs" I think modifying your fucking gender isn't that fucking far fetched. And I mean if it doesn't directly pertain to you, why so invested in an old idea being so right?

Changing definitions around doesnt change facts. Even if you could change your gender surgically to the point of actual reproduction (likely WAY in the future), you were still modified after the fact.

As for being female by default, thats all in the gestation period. Meaning its just how it works. We also dont have many of our vital organs fully developed, nor can we survive without a full pregnancy cycle to fully form in the womb. Just cuz you were a blank slate that is female by default at the gestational stage doesnt mean that undergoing radical surgeries or hormone therapies changes the FACT that you were biologically not the sex you perceived yourself to be.

Now, I am NOT proposing some sort of ban or anti freedom sentiment. Do what you want. But that doesnt mean people have to accept it as scientific fact.

That whole pseudoscience logic can be applied to put a spin on literally anything. While science cant explain everything as we know it, gender and reproductivity are factually well understood. Who you are psychologically can vary. The brain is very complex. But gender isnt.

hockeybub89 posted...

Kensaimage posted...

Says who? Take that cat guy for example. He modified the hell out of himself and still committed suicide.

It's almost like a human seeing themselves as the wrong sex and seeing themselves as the wrong species might be different issues.

Disparity between reality and self image, and an inability to come to terms. Its in the same vein.

Science!

Not, not like that!
---

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

You can't "correct" your sex chromosomes.
---

So, uh, did CE's own Say ever do the clever video editing where he fucks herself?

Kensaimage posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Kensaimage posted...

Says who? Take that cat guy for example. He modified the hell out of himself and still committed suicide.

It's almost like a human seeing themselves as the wrong sex and seeing themselves as the wrong species might be different issues.

Disparity between reality and self image, and an inability to come to terms. Its in the same vein.

Giving what we know about chromosomal defects and intersex conditions, the complexity of the brain, and the fact that everyone "starts" as a "female" makes transgenderism a quite bit different than viewing yourself as non-human.

There is nothing suggesting that a human can be a cat. How could two humans give birth to a cat in a human body with a human brain?
---

hey @ everyone who's like transgenderism aint legit man

how about you just live your life like you want and respect everyone else's right to do the same

Funbazooka posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Kensaimage posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

If you need surgery to fix your broken arm, do you have a mental disorder?

Cutting your dick off voluntarily is NOT the same thing

Correcting a physical problem is correcting a physical problem no matter how ya wanna slice it

You can't "correct" your sex chromosomes.

You can't technically correct a lot of things. Are you against prosthetics, transplants, and many correctional procedures? "That's unnatural! You aren't whole! You aren't cured! You're just living a lie and delaying the inevitable!" You'd be one of those anti-aug people in Deus Ex.
---

I find it odd that generally those who are fond of labeling all kinds of things they disagree with as social constructs (like it's fiction) are simultaneously eager to put a stamp of enthusiastic approval on the rejection and alteration of natural born biology.

That being said I wouldn't support forbidding people from sex change operations. But I don't think it's right, nor do I think it's attractive at all, like with titty implants. Most guys who are interested don't want that, in both cases.
---

Kensaimage posted...

Changing definitions around doesnt change facts. Even if you could change your gender surgically to the point of actual reproduction (likely WAY in the future), you were still modified after the fact.

As for being female by default, thats all in the gestation period. Meaning its just how it works. We also dont have many of our vital organs fully developed, nor can we survive without a full pregnancy cycle to fully form in the womb. Just cuz you were a blank slate that is female by default at the gestational stage doesnt mean that undergoing radical surgeries or hormone therapies changes the FACT that you were biologically not the sex you perceived yourself to be.

Now, I am NOT proposing some sort of ban or anti freedom sentiment. Do what you want. But that doesnt mean people have to accept it as scientific fact.

That whole pseudoscience logic can be applied to put a spin on literally anything. While science cant explain everything as we know it, gender and reproductivity are factually well understood. Who you are psychologically can vary. The brain is very complex. But gender isnt.

Dude, why does this fucking matter to you?
---