Current Events > I really don't see any civilization ever mastering intergalactic travel.

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's taken 50,000 years for modern humans to get where we are now. And ever since then it seems like society has been on the verge of collapse, from however many sources, within our control or not.

What I'm trying to say is Scully would be right IRL
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It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.
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We still know so little about how the universe works in the grand scheme of things.

If you consider how much humanity advanced in travel in the last 150 years alone - from the propellor plane to space stations - who knows what will be achieved long after we're gone.

MorbidFaithless posted...

It's taken 50,000 years for modern humans to get where we are now.

That's misleading, though. Yes, we've been primitive nomads and cave dwellers for most of our existence, but we jumped to the Bronze Age in the last 2,500 years. We also performed a successful aero flight only 100 years ago, then landed men on the moon less than 50 years ago. In other words, our technology has skyrocketed (pun intended) in a relatively short period and maybe it will continue to do so. That doesn't guarantee interstellar travel, but you might be selling us short as a species, if you're going to say it took us 50,000+ years to get to this point.
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DoctorVader posted...

It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.

Yes, you can't go faster than light speed, but we could always find ways to cheat the distance.
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marthsheretoo posted...

DoctorVader posted...

It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.

Yes, you can't go faster than light speed, but we could always find ways to cheat the distance.

Yep, I like that way of thinking.
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marthsheretoo posted...

DoctorVader posted...

It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.

Yes, you can't go faster than light speed, but we could always find ways to cheat the distance.

Wormholes are more sci-fi than science. Time dilation costs A LOT of energy to be useful and going even at the speed of light requires infinite energy.
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Then why haven't we been visited hmmm? It's like time travel. If it existed, wouldn't people be doing it already
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Alcubierre drive requires a shit-ton of energy.
But experiments revealed that it requires less energy than expected.
It still requires a shit-ton of energy, but it is a shit-ton of energy less than earlier.

MorbidFaithless posted...

Then why haven't we been visited hmmm? It's like time travel. If it existed, wouldn't people be doing it already

Have you seen how big the universe is?
Many places to travel to.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

And ever since then it seems like society has been on the verge of collapse

Not even remotely. We are actually in one of the most stable times, ever. We have protections against things like plague or disease wiping us all out. People have spread to remote regions. We have the technology to continue surviving and spreading for years to come. We are a very hardy race.

Either way, though, it's unlikely we will wipe ourselves out before we get to that stage. It'll likely just be awhile. We are actually moving at an incredible rate technologically now.

Our grasp of society is incredibly tenuous. Playing Mad Max really hammers it home. It actually started to bum me out because it's not at all fantastical. That sort of "society" could be us in no time at all. There's a line that says those who were born into that world have no knowledge of any other way of life. All it takes is one generation to lose everything we've built.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Our grasp of society is incredibly tenuous. Playing Mad Max really hammers it home. It actually started to bum me out because it's not at all fantastical. That sort of "society" could be us in no time at all. There's a line that says those who were born into that world have no knowledge of any other way of life. All it takes is one generation to lose everything we've built.

Yeah, Mad Max is great, but it's a very fantastic premise. For the entire world to collapse like that overnight would be nearly impossible. It points out some of the pitfalls we could encounter, but reality is much more mundane and boring and much less heroic or morally black and white.

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

hey, probably tomorrow some alien race show up and teaches us how to intergalactic travel.
or at least taken us all as a slave and used us in the new planets they conquer.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Then why haven't we been visited hmmm? It's like time travel. If it existed, wouldn't people be doing it already

Consider how big the universe is, and we are one tiny rock in one solar system in one comparably small galaxy. It's arrogant to assume aliens would have to come visit us as if we're the ultimate destination.

ArchiePeck posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Then why haven't we been visited hmmm? It's like time travel. If it existed, wouldn't people be doing it already

Consider how big the universe is, and we are one tiny rock in one solar system in one comparably small galaxy. It's arrogant to assume aliens would have to come visit us as if we're the ultimate destination.

or maybe they already watching us and thinks "yeah, im not touching this one".
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Are you sure? I'm pretty positive Sid Meier wouldn't lie to me.
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Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

It's pessimistic to acknowledge human behavior? Every day people rip each other's faces off for reasons far less severe than constant threat of death. I think it's naive to think a global disaster on such a scale couldn't send us back to tribal warring. In the end we're just humans. You're right that we adapt. I fear that's how we would adapt.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

It's pessimistic to acknowledge human behavior? Every day people rip each other's faces off for reasons far less severe than constant threat of death. I think its naive to think a global disaster on such a scale could send us back to tribal warring. In the end we're just humans. You're right that we adapt. I fear that's how we would adapt.

We also see people every day risking their lives to save strangers and working on ways to save more people. We always fall in the middle. Extremes aren't sustainable. You'd literally have to have all gas run out, all governments shut down, and an entire generation or two swear to give up the old ways in favor of promoting a culture of joining gangs and wearing bondage gear.

It wasn't supposed to be a direct comparison. I was referring to the general collapse of society following a severe global disaster. (In the game it does mention that most of the people on earth are dead.) Of course extremes aren't sustainable. But you're always going to have people who ARE going to go to the extreme route of violence. For as many people who are saved, how many more are killed? We have people on this very forum who talk about killing people if they had a chance. Without the implicit social contract that comes with access to food, water, and shelter, things get mighty ugly. People are REALLY good at surviving. That's going to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
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Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

It's pessimistic to acknowledge human behavior? Every day people rip each other's faces off for reasons far less severe than constant threat of death. I think its naive to think a global disaster on such a scale could send us back to tribal warring. In the end we're just humans. You're right that we adapt. I fear that's how we would adapt.

We also see people every day risking their lives to save strangers and working on ways to save more people. We always fall in the middle. Extremes aren't sustainable. You'd literally have to have all gas run out, all governments shut down, and an entire generation or two swear to give up the old ways in favor of promoting a culture of joining gangs and wearing bondage gear.

not always.

the history of humanity is a history of war above all else.

people risk their lives because there is something worth risking it for, if society were to collapse, people aren't going to risk their lives just for the lolz. a firefighter today can die, and his family will survive because society is there to help out, remove a stable society and now that same firefighter must figure out if the risk to save a random stranger is worth the risk that if he dies, his family might die without him there to protect it.

What if we do 100 push ups and run that fast?
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kayoticdreamz posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

It's pessimistic to acknowledge human behavior? Every day people rip each other's faces off for reasons far less severe than constant threat of death. I think its naive to think a global disaster on such a scale could send us back to tribal warring. In the end we're just humans. You're right that we adapt. I fear that's how we would adapt.

We also see people every day risking their lives to save strangers and working on ways to save more people. We always fall in the middle. Extremes aren't sustainable. You'd literally have to have all gas run out, all governments shut down, and an entire generation or two swear to give up the old ways in favor of promoting a culture of joining gangs and wearing bondage gear.

not always.

the history of humanity is a history of war above all else.

people risk their lives because there is something worth risking it for, if society were to collapse, people aren't going to risk their lives just for the lolz. a firefighter today can die, and his family will survive because society is there to help out, remove a stable society and now that same firefighter must figure out if the risk to save a random stranger is worth the risk that if he dies, his family might die without him there to protect it.

Precisely. That's what Mad Max is about. In a world where there's no guarantee of a meal or drop of water, it can't be sunshine and daisies all the time. When every single day is a fight to keep breathing... things are gonna get tough.
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"Science fiction is an incredibly unrealistic look at our future.
Source: Mad Max."

Lmao tc plz
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I doubt it myself but we don't need FTL travel;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WtgmT5CYU8" data-time="

Of course, this is optimistic.
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I don't think that's what i said at all...?
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MorbidFaithless posted...

kayoticdreamz posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

It's pessimistic to acknowledge human behavior? Every day people rip each other's faces off for reasons far less severe than constant threat of death. I think its naive to think a global disaster on such a scale could send us back to tribal warring. In the end we're just humans. You're right that we adapt. I fear that's how we would adapt.

We also see people every day risking their lives to save strangers and working on ways to save more people. We always fall in the middle. Extremes aren't sustainable. You'd literally have to have all gas run out, all governments shut down, and an entire generation or two swear to give up the old ways in favor of promoting a culture of joining gangs and wearing bondage gear.

not always.

the history of humanity is a history of war above all else.

people risk their lives because there is something worth risking it for, if society were to collapse, people aren't going to risk their lives just for the lolz. a firefighter today can die, and his family will survive because society is there to help out, remove a stable society and now that same firefighter must figure out if the risk to save a random stranger is worth the risk that if he dies, his family might die without him there to protect it.

Precisely. That's what Mad Max is about. In a world where there's no guarantee of a meal or drop of water, it can't be sunshine and daisies all the time. When every single day is a fight to keep breathing... things are gonna get tough.

The problem is that, again, it would take every single government and failsafe system put in place failing at the exact same time for it to be a global thing. How exactly would that happen?

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

kayoticdreamz posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

From my knowledge it wasn't overnight. That's not the sense I got. Haven't seen any of the movies, but in the game it feels like a lot of time is supposed to be passing while playing the story. And at the beginning Max has already been doing his thing for quite a while.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic. I'm not some fatalist who thinks we're necessarily destined to end up like that, I'm just saying it would not be at all a surprise if we regressed to those conditions.

It's incredibly unrealistic, and no, it had to be very quickly. It's not very likely that the gas would run out and people would continue to drive the same cars for the next few generations.

Either way, though, you are being overly pessimistic. I'm not saying as a species we are invulnerable, but either sort of extreme is near impossible. We survive and adapt. It's pretty much all we are good at as a whole.

It's pessimistic to acknowledge human behavior? Every day people rip each other's faces off for reasons far less severe than constant threat of death. I think its naive to think a global disaster on such a scale could send us back to tribal warring. In the end we're just humans. You're right that we adapt. I fear that's how we would adapt.

We also see people every day risking their lives to save strangers and working on ways to save more people. We always fall in the middle. Extremes aren't sustainable. You'd literally have to have all gas run out, all governments shut down, and an entire generation or two swear to give up the old ways in favor of promoting a culture of joining gangs and wearing bondage gear.

not always.

the history of humanity is a history of war above all else.

people risk their lives because there is something worth risking it for, if society were to collapse, people aren't going to risk their lives just for the lolz. a firefighter today can die, and his family will survive because society is there to help out, remove a stable society and now that same firefighter must figure out if the risk to save a random stranger is worth the risk that if he dies, his family might die without him there to protect it.

Precisely. That's what Mad Max is about. In a world where there's no guarantee of a meal or drop of water, it can't be sunshine and daisies all the time. When every single day is a fight to keep breathing... things are gonna get tough.

The problem is that, again, it would take every single government and failsafe system put in place failing at the exact same time for it to be a global thing. How exactly would that happen?

He mentions in the prologue that all the planes fell so I think it is something that devastated the electrical grid across the globe. I feel like that could do it lol. I think things would get bad fast with zero electricity/electronics.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

He mentions in the prologue that all the planes fell so I think it is something that devastated the electrical grid across the globe. I feel like that could do it lol. I think things would get bad fast with zero electricity/electronics.

That is literally science fiction, though.

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

He mentions in the prologue that all the planes fell so I think it is something that devastated the electrical grid across the globe. I feel like that could do it lol. I think things would get bad fast with zero electricity/electronics.

That is literally science fiction, though.

Semantics are fun.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

He mentions in the prologue that all the planes fell so I think it is something that devastated the electrical grid across the globe. I feel like that could do it lol. I think things would get bad fast with zero electricity/electronics.

That is literally science fiction, though.

Semantics are fun.

What part of any of this was about semantics?

You made a topic about how you believed that humanity would never reach intergalactic travel because you think we are too unstable. You cited Mad Max as your source. Then when I pointed out how the scenario was near-impossible, you said it could happen if the science fiction plot device actually happened.

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

MorbidFaithless posted...

He mentions in the prologue that all the planes fell so I think it is something that devastated the electrical grid across the globe. I feel like that could do it lol. I think things would get bad fast with zero electricity/electronics.

That is literally science fiction, though.

Semantics are fun.

What part of any of this was about semantics?

You made a topic about how you believed that humanity would never reach intergalactic travel because you think we are too unstable. You cited Mad Max as your source. Then when I pointed out how the scenario was near-impossible, you said it could happen if the science fiction plot device actually happened.

That isn't what I said. It was a comparison. I was talking about the general idea. I was never saying that we would have the exact same scenario. You're the one hung up on it.
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DoctorVader posted...

It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.

The problem is youre considering travel as limited by our understanding of physics as is.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Then why haven't we been visited hmmm? It's like time travel. If it existed, wouldn't people be doing it already

why the fuck would type II or III civilization want to visit plebs like us
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MorbidFaithless posted...

That isn't what I said. It was a comparison. I was talking about the general idea. I was never saying that we would have the exact same scenario. You're the one hung up on it.

Okay, maybe I misunderstood.

So you are saying that humanity will never reach intergalactic travel because a complete, worldwide societal collapse is inevitable?

Also, where exactly did semantics come into play?

Dash_Harber posted...

So you are saying that humanity will never reach intergalactic travel because a complete, worldwide societal collapse is inevitable?

Yes. In my opinion it seems unlikely a society would be able to master intergalactic travel because the society would collapse (for whatever reason).

Semantics in that it would have to be some sort of science fiction scenario. I never meant to imply that. Sorry if I did. I think a global disaster is pretty much inevitable and it's human behavior that makes me wary of believing we'd be able to put ourselves back together.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Yes. In my opinion it seems unlikely a society would be able to master intergalactic travel because the society would collapse (for whatever reason).

Yes, but one society collapsing does not mean all societies collapse.

MorbidFaithless posted...

Semantics in that it would have to be some sort of science fiction scenario. I never meant to imply that. Sorry if I did. I think a global disaster is pretty much inevitable and it's human behavior that makes me wary of believing we'd be able to put ourselves back together.

My problem with this is that any scenario that would cause a complete Earth-wide societal collapse would probably kill us off long before we reached the Mad Max level. Even ignoring that, though, complete extinction is unlikely, and that is pretty much the only way that space travel will be completely off the table.

masticatingman posted...

DoctorVader posted...

It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.

The problem is youre considering travel as limited by our understanding of physics as is.

DoctorVader posted...

Wormholes are more sci-fi than science. Time dilation costs A LOT of energy to be useful and going even at the speed of light requires infinite energy.

All other methods require massive energy, like you'd need a Dyson Sphere to even harness anything close to it manipulating space-time. Otherwise, distances are simply too far.

Everything else is sci-fi till there's more proof. By your logic, everything is probably possible because it's only not possible in our limited understanding thus far.
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Outside of curiosity its completely pointless and wasteful anyway
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masticatingman posted...

DoctorVader posted...

It's not because of some limitation caused by humans. It's simply not possible to exceed c and 100k light-years is simply too much to cover, let alone 2 million for Andromeda.

The problem is youre considering travel as limited by our understanding of physics as is.

It doesn't make sense to jump to conclusions based on arbitrary nonsense, does it? Our current understanding is all we currently have, and we currently understand that light speed is a pretty wacky thing that will be incredibly difficult to work around if it's even possible to do so at all.
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