Current Events > how do christians rationalize god "loving" you, but at the same time

(+) Yeah! (+)

being more than willing to send you off to burn in hell for eternity?
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love hurts.
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free will, if you didn't want to burn in hell you wouldn't have been a dirty sinner
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Generally, it comes with some sort of father analogy about punishing bad kids to help them correct their behavior. If you don't find that satisfying, then you probably not allowed to know God's infinite plan.

god is a dick
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God is just lying to persuade people to behave like parents do, He wont actually do it
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Doublethink. Same reason a lot of Christians can simultaneously believe their god knows what will happen in the future while still thinking we have free will - objectively incompatible ideas, yet somehow it's alright because god.

Dash_Harber posted...

Generally, it comes with some sort of father analogy about punishing bad kids to help them correct their behavior.

Which is odd because I've only ever heard Christians talk about hell like it's a done deal - you're there for good, so correcting one's behavior is irrelevant.
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Religion isnt the best option
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LinksLiege posted...

Which is odd because I've only ever heard Christians talk about hell like it's a done deal - you're there for good, so correcting one's behavior is irrelevant.

Yeah, the analogy falls apart pretty easily, but it's pretty much the only reasoning I can think of other than, "they are sinners so they deserve it". To be fair, though, some groups don't believe in fire and brimstone hell and I've met a few modern Christians who argued that it's not eternal.

*pushes everybody overboard*

*Brandishes a life preserver* Anybody want to not die?

That's basically what the Christian god does.

anyway, Christians think humans are inherently dirty sinners even before they've done anything. Immediately after birth, a human is already shitty enough to deserve to be tortured eternally according to Christians.

Because Eve ate an apple LOL
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we're all going to hell if you believe in mortal sins anyways
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Wetterdew posted...

anyway, Christians think humans are inherently dirty sinners even before they've done anything. Immediately after birth, a human is already shitty enough to deserve to be tortured eternally according to Christians.

Actually not true of all Christian groups. Original Sin is contentious and is most commonly associated with Catholics. Many Protestant groups don't believe it.

Dash_Harber posted...

Wetterdew posted...

anyway, Christians think humans are inherently dirty sinners even before they've done anything. Immediately after birth, a human is already shitty enough to deserve to be tortured eternally according to Christians.

Actually not true of all Christian groups. Original Sin is contentious and is most commonly associated with Catholics. Many Protestant groups don't believe it.

Ehhhhhh. Maybe these days. A few centuries back Quakers were considered fucking weirdos and heretics by other Protestants (predominantly Lutheran or Episcopal / CoE) for not believing in original sin.
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LinksLiege posted...

Same reason a lot of Christians can simultaneously believe their god knows what will happen in the future while still thinking we have free will

It's quite simple for free will to coexist with divine premonition. God knows that we're going to do beforehand but didn't force us to that conclusion. One omniscient being doesn't erase the existence of free will.
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OwlRammer posted...

free will

Free will doesn't exist in a world shared with an Abrahamic god.

monkeysRfunny posted...

God knows that we're going to do beforehand but didn't force us to that conclusion.

Then it isn't free will. If he knows then the path has been determined and there is no alternative and only the illusion of choice.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Wetterdew posted...

anyway, Christians think humans are inherently dirty sinners even before they've done anything. Immediately after birth, a human is already shitty enough to deserve to be tortured eternally according to Christians.

Actually not true of all Christian groups. Original Sin is contentious and is most commonly associated with Catholics. Many Protestant groups don't believe it.

Ehhhhhh. Maybe these days. A few centuries back Quakers were considered fucking weirdos and heretics by other Protestants (predominantly Lutheran or Episcopal / CoE) for not believing in original sin.

Let's be real here; pretty much every group thinks that the other sects are full of weirdos. For example, Martin Luther thought the Baptists were absolutely insane because they didn't believe in child baptism. Either way, though, the Trinity, Original Sin, and Hellfire are all doctrines that are not ubiquitous with Christianity (even if they are incredibly common among the majority of groups).

Hmmmmm. Maybe 'God' is omniscient and omnipotent but not benevolent. Or they are benevolent and some human suffering is from their perspective 'good' in some way.
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Wetterdew posted...

Because Eve ate an apple LOL

Seriously, the Abrahamic God from the bible basically implemented a zero tolerance policy on all human kind because of what 2 idiots, whom he created, did.
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chill02 posted...

god is a dick

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The key to being a good Christian is to not think too much about it. Just accept what youre told without question and carry on.
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0AbsoluteZero0 posted...

The key to being a good Christian is to not think too much about it. Just accept what youre told without question and carry on.

And cover your ears and go "LA LA LA LAAAAAAAAA" whenever a scientist speaks.
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So damn dumb that people still follow and practice these things lol
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monkeysRfunny posted...

LinksLiege posted...

Same reason a lot of Christians can simultaneously believe their god knows what will happen in the future while still thinking we have free will

It's quite simple for free will to coexist with divine premonition. God knows that we're going to do beforehand but didn't force us to that conclusion. One omniscient being doesn't erase the existence of free will.

Doesn't add up when that god is also omnipotent and the creator of all existence. When he created the universe, he knew exactly how everything would play out, and he chose to have it play out this particular way. If he didn't want me to make this post, he could have chosen to make the universe in such a way that I never would, but he made it this way and thus I have no freedom to not make this post.
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iClockwork posted...

Then it isn't free will. If he knows then the path has been determined and there is no alternative and only the illusion of choice.

This is still free will. Knowing what will happen doesn't take away choices. Like when I play UMvC3, I know what my opponent is going to do sometimes. Am I robbing him of his free will? No, he makes his own decisions. But I know what's going to happen. Granted this isn't a perfect analogy because I'm simply predicting with 100% certainty; I'm not some all-knowing beardy dude.

tl;dr
Knowledge doesn't create an illusion in this
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

This is still free will. Knowing what will happen doesn't take away choices. Like when I play UMvC3, I know what my opponent is going to do sometimes. Am I robbing him of his free will? No, he makes his own decisions. But I know what's going to happen. Granted this isn't a perfect analogy because I'm simply predicting with 100% certainty; I'm not some all-knowing beardy dude.

tl;dr
Knowledge doesn't create an illusion in this

You didn't create the universe with the ability (due to omnipotence) and knowledge (due to omniscience) to decide exactly how you want everything to play out
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that's why I believe either
1. god is not all powerful and hell is an inevitable conclusion of a sinful life
2. god is not an all loving god and is sort of a jerk
3. there is no god and no hell, only consequences of actions: fair and unfair alike
4. there is no hell, only your soul being snuffed out and destroyed. hell is a myth created by the catholic church

fuzzylittlbunny posted...

Granted this isn't a perfect analogy

It's a perfect example of how flimsy the logic is for reconciling those two ideas, though.
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Would either of you please explain how knowing something means that the person doing it didn't have a choice then?
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I'll say my piece. There is something that seems right to me to do. I desire to do that thing. But I just can't will myself to do it. So much for "free will".

There's the idea of purgatory. I think that's only a Catholic thing though, it's not in the Bible iirc.
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

Would either of you please explain how knowing something means that the person doing it didn't have a choice then?

It's not the act of knowing, it's the act of creating with the knowledge of how it will turn out. If God knew everything when he created the universe, that means he knew (for example) that I would make this post at this moment. If he didn't want me to, he could have made the universe different. When he made the universe, everything was already predetermined because the only way for it not to be is for God to not actually be omniscient. And that means he chose this path for us; it's not free will if someone else made the choice for you eons before you were born.
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purgatory is like, you can get out of punishment if you learn your lesson and fix your attitude and such

Creating while knowing the outcome is the same as just knowing the outcome. You know what'll happen but you don't force it. Let me try another analogy.

Say there's a hamster that's trying to get to some food. No free will hamster has to go through a linear plastic tube that some scientists set up to get his tasty treat. But the happier hamster with free will can wander around through an open meadow to get his treat however he wants. The observer who set each of these up knows the outcome. He knows that the hamster without free will will take precisely 9.8 seconds to reach his meal. He knows that the second hamster will roll around in the grass, hop about, and nap for a few minutes before proceeding to his prize.

God didn't put people in a plastic tube just marching forward to eat. We're free to do whatever we want with our time on this planet, and he knows exactly how we're going to spend every second of it.
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

Would either of you please explain how knowing something means that the person doing it didn't have a choice then?

If someone is omniscient they know that they will do something. If they plan to change what they were going to do to go against their own omniscience, their omniscience would have warned them that they were going to do that ahead of time. And so on and so forth

Knowing everything that is and everything that will be includes knowing when youre going to resist destiny. Its a cruel idea of existence to be sure
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Wetterdew posted...

anyway, Christians think humans are inherently dirty sinners even before they've done anything. Immediately after birth, a human is already shitty enough to deserve to be tortured eternally according to Christians.

Most Human's commit multiple sins every day.
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

God didn't put people in a plastic tube just marching forward to eat.

Yes, he did. How can I have free will when I cannot do anything other than exactly what he decided I would do when he created the universe?
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Because he didn't decide what you would do; he knew what you would choose to do. He knew the hamster would want to take a nibble at the flower exactly 3 steps in front of him. He didn't brainwash it into doing that.
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he created it knowing it would do that. that's not free will. if he was unsure if it would choose the right path, then you'd have a point.

Yeah fuzzylittlebunny, you keep ignoring the fact that it's God that created these things and he created them knowing what their destiny is going to be. It's totally different from predicting what something is going to do.
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

Because he didn't decide what you would do; he knew what you would choose to do. He knew the hamster would want to take a nibble at the flower exactly 3 steps in front of him. He didn't brainwash it into doing that.

It's not a choice if the person is incapable of doing anything else.

As for brainwashing...well, actually, yes, that's exactly what he did. He created humanity the way he wanted it to be. Every aspect of our decision making process is what he envisioned when he created us. We've been designed from long before we even existed to behave in the exact way he wanted when he created us this way.
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You know what, I'm done trying. I can see we're never going to come to an understanding, so I say we just agree to disagree.
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

Granted this isn't a perfect analogy

You just defeated you own argument.

You predict

God KNOWS, therefore it is determined.

Because they really don't want to think the whole thing through.
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