Current Events > Why does Mathematics have such an uncanny ability to describe nature?

(+) Yeah! (+)

We know that's why mathematics was appropriated by science, but how can something based on intuition and not inductive science do that? Wouldn't that mean that the unaided human mind is better at correctly modeling nature than than the human mind that uses science?
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Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

Tag for later

Finally a good CE topic, thanks tc
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because 2+2=5
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Because mathematics is a branch of philosophy.

It would be way more uncanny if it didn't tbh. For example, if having one apple and then getting another apple left you with three apples.
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mathematics doesnt correctly model anything in nature. it simplifies many phenomena in nature, often times breaking up one phenomena into many different equations to describe it. mathematics can get close to describing things, but it rarely describes something perfectly
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Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

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DevsBro posted...

Because mathematics is a branch of philosophy.

I don't think I've heard math described this way. I'm not sure I agree either. They seem to be separate concepts, though not mutually exclusive.
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Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

ok, but to be honest I'm more interested in people's response to the follow-up question as that is at the heart of what I'm asking
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P4wn4g3 posted...

DevsBro posted...

Because mathematics is a branch of philosophy.

I don't think I've heard math described this way. I'm not sure I agree either. They seem to be separate concepts, though not mutually exclusive.

philosophy gave birth to mathematics. mathematics to physics. physics to chemistry.
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Maybe you're right. I can't remember. Just seems like 1+1=2 would predate cogeto ergo sum by a few millenia.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem
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BignutzisBack posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

ok, but to be honest I'm more interested in people's response to the follow-up question as that is at the heart of what I'm asking

Yeah, that's fair. It's definitely an interesting topic.

WTF are you guys talking about.
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Dash_Harber posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

ok, but to be honest I'm more interested in people's response to the follow-up question as that is at the heart of what I'm asking

Yeah, that's fair. It's definitely an interesting topic.

both mathematics and science rely on the concepts of observation and explanation, which is the basis of philosophy. so the two arent all that different. the premise in your topic is wrong.
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Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

Don't know why the topic has gone on past this.

It's descriptive, not prescriptive.
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DevsBro posted...

It would be way more uncanny if it didn't tbh. For example, if having one apple and then getting another apple left you with three apples.

What meaningful change would that make to mathematics?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
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Tried to type up a response and realized I don't have a good answer for this. Tag for later.
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Anteaterking posted...

DevsBro posted...

It would be way more uncanny if it didn't tbh. For example, if having one apple and then getting another apple left you with three apples.

What meaningful change would that make to mathematics?

Not sur wht you're asking. Are you asking what significant change there would be to maathematics if 1+1=3 or are you asking what significant change there would be to mathematics if the rules of addition didn't apply in the above situation?
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Math is the language of the universe! A beautiful thing, we know so much about it yet theres still so much to uncover. Numbers!
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Math is the language of the universe, we didnt invent it we discovered it
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LinksLiege posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

Don't know why the topic has gone on past this.

It's descriptive, not prescriptive.

Because if you would have read through the initial post you would have seen there was a follow-up question.
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DevsBro posted...

Not sur wht you're asking. Are you asking what significant change there would be to maathematics if 1+1=3 or are you asking what significant change there would be to mathematics if the rules of addition didn't apply in the above situation?

How would you describe a world where the rule of addition didn't apply in the situation?
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because math is the language of the universe!
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Tag
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Bump
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Anteaterking posted...

DevsBro posted...

Not sur wht you're asking. Are you asking what significant change there would be to maathematics if 1+1=3 or are you asking what significant change there would be to mathematics if the rules of addition didn't apply in the above situation?

How would you describe a world where the rule of addition didn't apply in the situation?

That's exactly my point. Mathematics naturally describes nature well because the world would be absurd otherwise.
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BlackHorse6969 posted...

mathematics doesnt correctly model anything in nature. it simplifies many phenomena in nature, often times breaking up one phenomena into many different equations to describe it. mathematics can get close to describing things, but it rarely describes something perfectly

https://www.gardenbetty.com/romanesco-broccoli-a-fibonacci-fractal/

Humans can disappear from the earth and a right triangles hypotenuse will still be a^2+b^2=c^2.

A circles area will still be pi*r^2.

Math is everything and were just recently starting to get that. It has always existed and been important before we decided it was.
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Flockaveli posted...

Humans can disappear from the earth and a right triangles hypotenuse will still be a^2+b^2=c^2.

A circles area will still be pi*r^2.

Math is everything and were just recently starting to get that. It has always existed and been important before we decided it was.

Technically, Math has not always existed, but the phenomenon we describe with it have. Math itself refers to the language of numbers we have developed to describe those phenomena.

DevsBro posted...

That's exactly my point. Mathematics naturally describes nature well because the world would be absurd otherwise.

But that isn't math describing nature. If I'm talking about combining sand in piles, "1+1=1". You're just talking about apple counting.

You can still do mathematics where 1+1"="3.
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Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

God tier second post
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CreekCo posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

God tier second post

@CreekCo it's only god tier for those without the attention span to see there was a follow-up question which is at the heart of what we are discussing.
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BignutzisBack posted...

CreekCo posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

God tier second post

@CreekCo it's only god tier for those without the attention span to see there was a follow-up question which is at the heart of what we are discussing.

Dude, you got the best response ever. No one on CE has the answers for the universe today. Reflect upon the wise answer you were given.

Saying more is like vanity. There's no need to put a dash where there should be a period,
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CreekCo posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

CreekCo posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Because mathematics is a human invented language for describing natural phenomenon?

God tier second post

@CreekCo it's only god tier for those without the attention span to see there was a follow-up question which is at the heart of what we are discussing.

Dude, you got the best response ever. No one on CE has the answers for the universe today. Reflect upon the wise answer you were given.

Saying more is like vanity. There's no need to put a dash where there should be a period,

I've got a few good responses yes but all of them were from the people who read both questions lol
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The universe is an undifferentiated mess of phenomena. Humans create models to describe said phenomena, but we're taking an arbitrary chunk of of the whole undifferentiated mess to create a language that describes said phenomena, usually for the purpose of predictive power. To control an outcome.

The fact that math seems to fit nature so well is kind of a hindsight bias. It's like saying an apple is red. A simple statement, but there are so many assumptions that went into describing exactly what an "apple" is and what "red" is and how they relate. But when you lay it down all the basics constructs that got you to apple and to red, it's really just a logical combination.

Take Newton's theorem of motion versus Einstein's relativity. Newton's doesn't *exactly* describe nature as it really is, but if you're just trying to calculate simple projectile motion, pretty damn good at its job. Apply it to GPS satellites, you run into problems.

That math isn't as "valid", but it still has a function. Math describes nature so well because you're looking at the examples that model some phenomenon really well. But like others have said, it's really just a language describing said phenomenon. It's just so precise you can actually manipulate certain variables or conditions for the sake of a particular outcome. It doesn't really matter how well it *actually* describes nature insofar as that's a metaphysical question.
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CreekCo is an antivaxxer.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

CreekCo is an antivaxxer.

You're apparently a punk *** alt. Post on your main account.
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CreekCo posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

CreekCo is an antivaxxer.

You're apparently a punk *** alt. Post on your main account.

This is my main silly. Just wanted to inform everyone before they wasted their time with you.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

CreekCo posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

CreekCo is an antivaxxer.

You're apparently a punk *** alt. Post on your main account.

This is my main silly. Just wanted to inform everyone before they wasted their time with you.

Wtf does your fascist ramblings have to do with the topic? Are you off to tell the thought police?

@TC: This is also what I meant. You got a beautiful answer... on CE... appreciate it. There's so many basement dwellers like this who have nothing to offer the world that I was just pointing out how much I liked that response is all.
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@BignutzisBack : Check out quantum theory if math interests you like that. Basically, Calculus was invented to express areas of curves that algebra wasn't specific enough to deal with (gross oversimplification there btw). Quantum and probability based mathematics might help us describe movement and phenomena in higher dimensions.
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CreekCo posted...

Basically, Calculus was invented to express areas of curves that algebra wasn't specific enough to deal with (gross oversimplification there btw).

It's an oversimplification and it only really is the motivation behind Newton. Calculus is more built around differentiability than integrability.
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Anteaterking posted...

CreekCo posted...

Basically, Calculus was invented to express areas of curves that algebra wasn't specific enough to deal with (gross oversimplification there btw).

It's an oversimplification and it only really is the motivation behind Newton. Calculus is more built around differentiability than integrability.

Yeah. I just wanted to give the TC something to check into since he mentioned it but I didn't want the spend several posts on Newton / Leibniz getting to that point, lol.
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BignutzisBack posted...

We know that's why mathematics was appropriated by science, but how can something based on intuition and not inductive science do that? Wouldn't that mean that the unaided human mind is better at correctly modeling nature than than the human mind that uses science?

The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences
by Eugene Wigner

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html

TL;DR: It's one of the greatest mysteries in science. Is mathematics something we created to help describe the universe to us, or is math something we are discovering about the true foundation of the universe?
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Ultimately, that answer boils down to the question of us the universe lawful or not? I always loved Chaos Theory in that there exists patterns even in random events. Interesting stuff.
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BB mofo posted...

TL;DR: It's one of the greatest mysteries in science. Is mathematics something we created to help describe the universe to us, or is math something we are discovering about the true foundation of the universe?

I only ever really see non-mathematicians debate about whether math is "invented or discovered". Maybe if you do enough of it you realize it's both; You're inventing the definitions/axioms and "discovering" the consequences of them.
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Anteaterking posted...

I only ever really see non-mathematicians debate about whether math is "invented or discovered". Maybe if you do enough of it you realize it's both; You're inventing the definitions/axioms and "discovering" the consequences of them.

I admit, I self study these things. Could you point me to a lecture, essay, or book that would better explain this to me? It would really help me out.
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Anteaterking posted...

But that isn't math (...) You're just talking about (...) counting.

...
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Anteaterking posted...

I only ever really see non-mathematicians debate about whether math is "invented or discovered".

I doubt this is the case. When Euclid's fifth was proven wrong Mathematicians were in a panic.
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