Current Events > Lots of Raping Went Down After World War II, Lots and Lots and Lots of Raping

(+) Yeah! (+)

E32005 posted...

considering what the Germans did to all of western europe's women and even worse-Russian women; its not surprising we won and got revenge.

Nice generalization you got going there
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White Eagle posted...

Yeah...that title probably sounds better in German. >_>

Those numbers aren't good and the Soviets were even worse in the East. The late 40s were not a good time to be German in general before the Marshall Plan kicked in for the West at least.

Has the same undertone im german. Thats the point of the title.
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Funkdamental posted...

It's difficult to produce solid statistics that tell us precisely how consensual, exploitative, or coercive sexual relationships were under a years-long military occupation in which 'fraternization' was the rule rather than the exception, simply by looking at birth records.

To be fair, it says she did conduct interviews. But it's possible public perception could have blown it up farther than what really happened... which is basically what you're saying.
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@teepan95:

Oh, I accept that records were kept, but these were post-war records of births, rather than of rapes. My remark to Questionmarktarius was prompted by the fact that he seemed to be under the impression these were records compiled by the Nazi authorities, of rapes by Allied soldiers.

Again, the fact that German mothers whose children were fathered by foreign soldiers were treated with contempt by post-war German authorities still doesn't enable us to tell with accuracy how many of these children were the products of actual rape. As I've said, during the 1930s the Nazis sterilized the children of interracial sexual relationships between German women and French colonial African soldiers occupying the Rhineland after WW1, but official opprobrium doesn't tell us the true story behind those relationships.

(I'd contend, by the way, that there would have been an ulterior motive for some mothers to say in 1945-49 that their unwanted pregnancy was the result of rape: kinder, perhaps, to be thought of by your neighbours as an unwilling victim than to be thought of as a willing sexual collaborator with the occupier.)

Understand: I'm certainly not saying that none were, and there may well have been tens of thousands of cases of rape by occupying soldiers from the Allied democracies. What I'm saying is that we can't tell from the raw figure of 860,000 foreign-fathered births how many there actually were. At best we can get only an impression of the facts in some cases from a selection of interviews.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

TheGrindery posted...

This reminds me of the part in Blazing Saddles when people are applying to be bad guys.

"What are your crimes?"
"Rape, robbery, arson, rape..."
"You said rape twice."
"... I like rape."

Good ol' Blazing Saddles. Favorite Mel Brooks movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bigZ1fmwD-Q

TheGrindery posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

TheGrindery posted...

This reminds me of the part in Blazing Saddles when people are applying to be bad guys.

"What are your crimes?"
"Rape, robbery, arson, rape..."
"You said rape twice."
"... I like rape."

Good ol' Blazing Saddles. Favorite Mel Brooks movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bigZ1fmwD-Q

As fuck damn... the 2nd was murder? I always remember that one wrong >_<
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Funkdamental posted...

What I'm saying is that we can't tell from the raw figure of 860,000 foreign-fathered births how many there actually were.

A couple of things:

860,000 was her estimate of the total rapes - western and soviet.

The number of births was 68,000 for western allies I believe. I haven't read the book itself mind you - but from what I've read of the methodology her figure was arrived at first by taking the total births and comparing it against records of births claimed to be a result of rape, which was around 4,300, and then using the statistic that 1 in 100 rapes resulted in pregnancy.

But yeah, at best it's a pretty big extrapolation, and you're right that the number should be treated as such. It's quite a bit more conservative an estimate than some previous however, which claimed the soviets alone raped millions
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All the sex attacks happening in Germany are getting swept under the rug to this day. They need to come out with this stuff so we can help combat the problem
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InYourWalls1 posted...

Funkdamental posted...

What I'm saying is that we can't tell from the raw figure of 860,000 foreign-fathered births how many there actually were.

A couple of things:

860,000 was her estimate of the total rapes - western and soviet.

The number of births was 68,000 for western allies I believe. I haven't read the book itself mind you - but from what I've read of the methodology her figure was arrived at first by taking the total births and comparing it against records of births claimed to be a result of rape, which was around 4,300, and then using the statistic that 1 in 100 rapes resulted in pregnancy.

But yeah, at best it's a pretty big extrapolation, and you're right that the number should be treated as such. It's quite a bit more conservative an estimate than some previous however, which claimed the soviets alone raped millions

Ah, I see. Thank you. I feel I was misled by the quotation: "A German historian estimates in a new book that French, British and American soldiers raped 860,000 Germans..."
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l33t_iRk3n_Rm33 posted...

wackyteen posted...

I know America loves to fetishize Soldiers as a concept and make them out to be paragons of good and righteous behavior but a lot of soldiers are, in general, piece of shit human beings otherwise

People are, in general, piece of shit human beings. Being a soldier doesnt necessarily change that.

Well yeah but most people usually expect better from (American) soldiers
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Crazyman93 posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Japan literally took Korean and Chinese women hostage. They were called 'comfort women', and IIRC, Japan still refuses to apologize for that.

Japan refuses to admit they did anything during that period of time.

And United States refuses to apologize for instantaneously obliterating two Japanese cities.
War is war.

Don't start none there won't be none.
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voldothegr8 posted...

Don't start none there won't be none.

Exactly, once war starts; realistically, there are no rules.

No matter what you think the UN states in it's rules on warfare, reality is that ANYTHING can and will happen for one side to win the war.

So if you don't want bad shit to happen, don't start a war!!!
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KamenRiderBlade posted...

No matter what you think the UN states in it's rules on warfare

Can I just point out that the Geneva Conventions aren't "UN rules"? They're multi-party treaties, and nothing to do with the UN.
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Funkdamental posted...

Can I just point out that the Geneva Conventions aren't "UN rules"? They're multi-party treaties, and nothing to do with the UN.

And many countries will ignore those as well in times of war.
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Rape is a common attribute in War that no one really talks about. It's good this came out so maybe people in charge will address it as best they can.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Where's the Japanese numbers?
Allegedly, pretty much all the Japanese did in Korea and China was rape everything that stopped moving long enough.

Which is why Korea and China still dislike japan
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I never understand the concept of stealing pussy even in a war setting

I mean a woman not wanting it is an absolute turn off for me.
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im not 13 posted...

I never understand the concept of stealing pussy even in a war setting

I mean a woman not wanting it is an absolute turn off for me.

Not that it in any way justifies it but some people who join the military would do it for the power play. It's why sexually abusive hazing was so common and prevalent in the military til literally the last decade or so. Also, if they had already committed horrible atrocities (killing civilians, blowing up towns, etc) they might no longer care about "right and wrong".

If you ever get a chance, watch the movie Fury.
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Sadly I would be more surprised if something like that hadn't happened.
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Soldiers in "terrible people" shocker!

RE_expert44 posted...

All the sex attacks happening in Germany are getting swept under the rug to this day. They need to come out with this stuff so we can help combat the problem

What problem do we need to combat?
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What is greatest in life?

To crush your enemies

See them driven before you

To hear the lamentations of their women
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E32005 posted...

considering what the Germans did to all of western europe's women and even worse-Russian women; its not surprising we won and got revenge.

except these are f***Ing civilians who werent the ones killing your countrymen.

Wutobliteration posted...

E32005 posted...

considering what the Germans did to all of western europe's women and even worse-Russian women; its not surprising we won and got revenge.

except these are f***Ing civilians who werent the ones killing your countrymen.

I mean, civilians were killed indiscriminately during the bombings in Europe so it isn't like civilian harm was something odd in ww2

Raping as revenge is still despicable though.
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Wutobliteration posted...

E32005 posted...

considering what the Germans did to all of western europe's women and even worse-Russian women; its not surprising we won and got revenge.

except these are f***Ing civilians who werent the ones killing your countrymen.

Fuck that when people attack your family and "civilians" their family and civilians become fair game. Total war.
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Omega Hunter posted...

Wutobliteration posted...

E32005 posted...

considering what the Germans did to all of western europe's women and even worse-Russian women; its not surprising we won and got revenge.

except these are f***Ing civilians who werent the ones killing your countrymen.

Fuck that when people attack your family and "civilians" their family and civilians become fair game. Total war.

Well you're an awful person.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

And United States refuses to apologize for instantaneously obliterating two Japanese cities.
War is war.
.

There's no need to apologize for nuking Japan, they damn well deserved it. In fact, more than deserved it after what they did all across the Pacific Asia, from China to Korea to Philipines, Malaysia to Singapore.
Ask any person in these countries and they can tell you straight up Japan deserved the nukings. Maybe a quick death far too good a death for them and their crazy supremacist rule.
The US nukings is probably the least severe war atrocity out of everywhere, actually. It's ironic how ignorant Americans keep raising it up like it's the evilest thing ever done to mankind or what. You want to see cruel? Go read up on the Japanese atrocities, ranging from rape, inhumane torture, experimentation like in Unit 731, non-stop massacres across the countries they occupied and even a common sight of cannibalism of prisoners. They make the Nazis look like saints.

Wutobliteration posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

And United States refuses to apologize for instantaneously obliterating two Japanese cities.
War is war.
.

There's no need to apologize for nuking Japan, they damn well deserved it. In fact, more than deserved it after what they did all across the Pacific Asia, from China to Korea to Philipines, Malaysia to Singapore.
Ask any person in these countries and they can tell you straight up Japan deserved the nukings. Maybe a quick death far too good a death for them and their crazy supremacist rule.
The US nukings is probably the least severe war atrocity out of everywhere, actually. It's ironic how ignorant Americans keep raising it up like it's the evilest thing ever done to mankind or what. You want to see cruel? Go read up on the Japanese atrocities, ranging from rape, inhumane torture, experimentation like in Unit 731, non-stop massacres across the countries they occupied and even a common sight of cannibalism of prisoners. They make the Nazis look like saints.

I mean, there is a reason nukes are so vilified now - indiscriminate harm to civilians who likely did no harm and the lingering damage to future generations. Just because one side is awful, doesn't justify meeting their evil with an equal evil of your own. Basically everyone in ww2 was awful, and we should recognise the harm our own sides did rather than justify it and then berate the otherside for doing the same.
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Funkydog posted...

Wutobliteration posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

And United States refuses to apologize for instantaneously obliterating two Japanese cities.
War is war.
.

There's no need to apologize for nuking Japan, they damn well deserved it. In fact, more than deserved it after what they did all across the Pacific Asia, from China to Korea to Philipines, Malaysia to Singapore.
Ask any person in these countries and they can tell you straight up Japan deserved the nukings. Maybe a quick death far too good a death for them and their crazy supremacist rule.
The US nukings is probably the least severe war atrocity out of everywhere, actually. It's ironic how ignorant Americans keep raising it up like it's the evilest thing ever done to mankind or what. You want to see cruel? Go read up on the Japanese atrocities, ranging from rape, inhumane torture, experimentation like in Unit 731, non-stop massacres across the countries they occupied and even a common sight of cannibalism of prisoners. They make the Nazis look like saints.

I mean, there is a reason nukes are so vilified now - indiscriminate harm to civilians who likely did no harm and the lingering damage to future generations. Just because one side is awful, doesn't justify meeting their evil with an equal evil of your own. Basically everyone in ww2 was awful, and we should recognise the harm our own sides did rather than justify it and then berate the otherside for doing the same.

Lol we should apologize for winning basically.

Our society is just filled with spineless pussies. God its pathetic.
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Omega Hunter posted...

Lol we should apologize for winning basically.

Our society is just filled with spineless pussies. God its pathetic

Not saying we should apologise for that, no.

I'm saying for things like Dresden or the Nukes, or the crimes our soldiers committed on innocent civilians (rape, theft etc) aren't things to just be brushed off and ignored if we want the other side to own up to what they did as well.
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Funkydog posted...

Wutobliteration posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

And United States refuses to apologize for instantaneously obliterating two Japanese cities.
War is war.
.

There's no need to apologize for nuking Japan, they damn well deserved it. In fact, more than deserved it after what they did all across the Pacific Asia, from China to Korea to Philipines, Malaysia to Singapore.
Ask any person in these countries and they can tell you straight up Japan deserved the nukings. Maybe a quick death far too good a death for them and their crazy supremacist rule.
The US nukings is probably the least severe war atrocity out of everywhere, actually. It's ironic how ignorant Americans keep raising it up like it's the evilest thing ever done to mankind or what. You want to see cruel? Go read up on the Japanese atrocities, ranging from rape, inhumane torture, experimentation like in Unit 731, non-stop massacres across the countries they occupied and even a common sight of cannibalism of prisoners. They make the Nazis look like saints.

I mean, there is a reason nukes are so vilified now - indiscriminate harm to civilians who likely did no harm and the lingering damage to future generations. Just because one side is awful, doesn't justify meeting their evil with an equal evil of your own.

That's only war. Countries target civilians since that is the population that makes up a country, not soldiers. Not to mention, civilians would all be behind the war effort, especially in Japan where nationalism was fervent sky-high to the point of what escalated in their aggression in the first place, similar to the Nazis.

My point is, there's no need for some apology for the nukings. And even less should you, when Japan is the only Axis country till today that remains adamant about their actions in WW2, it's disgusting. If you ask Americans about the nukings, they can tell you 'oh it's bad, shame on us'. Ask a Japanese about their WW2 past and they'd be like 'huh? what you talking about?' or dismiss it as Chinese propaganda

Koreans still cry about comfort women and Japan for decades, refused to acknowledge it. Then their PM even goes to a war shrine to pay respect to their rapist mass murdering soldiers. Even the younger politicians now think the war was one big saving grace. That's how much they whitewash their country from the real history of the war.

this vid puts things into perspective. they arent even taught about the Nazis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qV7xbAVOY0

Wutobliteration posted...

There's no need to apologize for nuking Japan, they damn well deserved it. In fact, more than deserved it after what they did all across the Pacific Asia, from China to Korea to Philipines, Malaysia to Singapore.
Ask any person in these countries and they can tell you straight up Japan deserved the nukings. Maybe a quick death far too good a death for them and their crazy supremacist rule.
The US nukings is probably the least severe war atrocity out of everywhere, actually. It's ironic how ignorant Americans keep raising it up like it's the evilest thing ever done to mankind or what. You want to see cruel? Go read up on the Japanese atrocities, ranging from rape, inhumane torture, experimentation like in Unit 731, non-stop massacres across the countries they occupied and even a common sight of cannibalism of prisoners. They make the Nazis look like saints.

Youre painting with a very broad stroke. Japanese soldiers did commit atrocities throughout the Pacific, but Japanese civilians did not. You cant go on a rant about the horrors experienced by Koreans, Filipinos and other non-combatants and then handwave what the US did to Japanese and German non-combatants, and not expect to be called out on your double standard of hypocrisy. Btw, it wasnt just the nukes that devastated Japanese cities. US and British bombers dropped incendiary (i.e. fire) and high-explosive bombs on both Japanese and German cities. The death toll is much higher when you add those to the nukes.
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Wutobliteration posted...

That's only war. Countries target civilians since that is the population that makes up a country, not soldiers. Not to mention, civilians would all be behind the war effort, especially in Japan where nationalism was fervent sky-high to the point of what escalated in their aggression in the first place, similar to the Nazis.

My point is, there's no need for some apology for the nukings. And even less should you, when Japan is the only Axis country till today that remains adamant about their actions in WW2, it's disgusting. Koreans still cry about comfort women and Japan for decades, refused to acknowledge it. Then their PM even goes to a war shrine to pay respect to their rapist mass murdering soldiers. Even the younger politicians now think the war was one big saving grace. That's how much they whitewash their country from the real history of the war

Oh, Japan's stance is disgusting I agree. But I disagree on the rest of your post. I understand why civilians might be targeted but I don't think that makes it any less a disgusting act - the indiscriminate mass murder of the nukes or fire bombings two prime examples of the "good guys" not really being good in ww2 It can be easy to brush it aside with "oh, they are supporting the enemy soldiers" but they are people who likely had little to no say in what was going on and probably just want to go on with their lives without this bloody war - much like civilians in your own country.

If you are holding the enemy to a standard, you can't just not hold yourself to it without being a hypocrite.
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Rape has been an unfortunate side-effect of war since literally forever.
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I never thought about it before but this isn't even a little surprising.
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Funkydog posted...

Wutobliteration posted...

That's only war. Countries target civilians since that is the population that makes up a country, not soldiers. Not to mention, civilians would all be behind the war effort, especially in Japan where nationalism was fervent sky-high to the point of what escalated in their aggression in the first place, similar to the Nazis.

My point is, there's no need for some apology for the nukings. And even less should you, when Japan is the only Axis country till today that remains adamant about their actions in WW2, it's disgusting. Koreans still cry about comfort women and Japan for decades, refused to acknowledge it. Then their PM even goes to a war shrine to pay respect to their rapist mass murdering soldiers. Even the younger politicians now think the war was one big saving grace. That's how much they whitewash their country from the real history of the war

Oh, Japan's stance is disgusting I agree. But I disagree on the rest of your post. I understand why civilians might be targeted but I don't think that makes it any less a disgusting act - the indiscriminate mass murder of the nukes or fire bombings two prime examples of the "good guys" not really being good in ww2 It can be easy to brush it aside with "oh, they are supporting the enemy soldiers" but they are people who likely had little to no say in what was going on and probably just want to go on with their lives without this bloody war - much like civilians in your own country.

If you are holding the enemy to a standard, you can't just not hold yourself to it without being a hypocrite.

you have to make a clear distinction in intentions here. If they're civilians that are against the war and has nothing to do with the war, then yes, they'd be innocent to the most degree. But if they're civilians that were fully behind the war effort (as in the case of Japan and Germany), they're responsible to a greater degree. The former is near impossible to actually be the case for most countries given countries will do their best to support their involvement in a war. Civilians working in factories and producing for the military all play a part as well. They're no different from the soldiers at the forefront that have to follow orders from their superiors to rape someone even if they don't want to.

And secondly, I agree of course the nukings are not morally right but neither are they not justified. Most civilians of the main belligerents are not innocent. The ones that are not are those committed by whoever started the conflict first. The only ones that truly are inncoent are those caught between (China, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, Korea etc.).
And thirdly, as I put before, bombings are only inevitable in a war.

If not the nukings, how the hell else do you expect the war to end? Politicians to suddenly shake hands, talk with flowery words and kiss each other on the cheeks?

Do you have any idea how many millions of lives were saved in Asia thanks to the nukes which finally ceased the hell-on-earth Japanese occupation? Do you have any idea how many more lives from BOTH American and Japanese sides would have been lost if the nukes were not dropped? They'd have to invade Japan directly, and then you'll get what you see here: direct soldier atrocities on civilians, even worse than a bomb

Funkydog posted...

Wutobliteration posted...

That's only war. Countries target civilians since that is the population that makes up a country, not soldiers. Not to mention, civilians would all be behind the war effort, especially in Japan where nationalism was fervent sky-high to the point of what escalated in their aggression in the first place, similar to the Nazis.

My point is, there's no need for some apology for the nukings. And even less should you, when Japan is the only Axis country till today that remains adamant about their actions in WW2, it's disgusting. Koreans still cry about comfort women and Japan for decades, refused to acknowledge it. Then their PM even goes to a war shrine to pay respect to their rapist mass murdering soldiers. Even the younger politicians now think the war was one big saving grace. That's how much they whitewash their country from the real history of the war

Oh, Japan's stance is disgusting I agree. But I disagree on the rest of your post. I understand why civilians might be targeted but I don't think that makes it any less a disgusting act - the indiscriminate mass murder of the nukes or fire bombings two prime examples of the "good guys" not really being good in ww2 It can be easy to brush it aside with "oh, they are supporting the enemy soldiers" but they are people who likely had little to no say in what was going on and probably just want to go on with their lives without this bloody war - much like civilians in your own country.

If you are holding the enemy to a standard, you can't just not hold yourself to it without being a hypocrite.

I absolutely can.

It goes like this. Nobody should punch anyone.

Then someone punches me. I can now punch them back without being a hypocrite.

I know its a really complicated concept....
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btw if you want to know why I'm so angry at the Japanese, it's because justice doesnt exist. My country was one of the main victims. Japan is the luckiest to be both the main aggressor of the war and yet, come out suffering the least.

Most of the perpetrators, including soldiers and lower-ranking officers, were all spared from punishment. Have you heard of Unit 731? Go look it up (if you can stomach the sights) and how atrocious the Japanese experimented on the asians, then on how the entire unit ALL got off scot-free after the war thanks to the US signing a secret agreement to spare them all.

Meanwhile Germany gets crushed to the brink, looted, raped and splitted into two between US and Soviets and had to struggle for decades later.

Meanwhile Japan continues to develop so much more, with most infrastructure spared, and now continuing to deny their involvement in the war and teaching their kids on how Japan invaded Asia to save the countries from British occupation. Some Japanese veterans also remain unregretful of their insanely inhumane actions in the war, although thankfully, most are starting to show remorse but everyone else in Japan (esp. the younger ones and Shinzo Abe's government) are about clueless as a rock.

here's one clip where a veteran describes one of the most common torture the Japanese used. Not even on the same level as the Nazis, beyond that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayb2yAtB3zs

Wutobliteration posted...

If not the nukings, how the hell else do you expect the war to end? Politicians to suddenly shake hands, talk with flowery words and kiss each other on the cheeks?

Do you have any idea how many millions of lives were saved in Asia thanks to the nukes which finally ceased the hell-on-earth Japanese occupation? Do you have any idea how many more lives from BOTH American and Japanese sides would have been lost if the nukes were not dropped? They'd have to invade Japan directly, and then you'll get what you see here: direct soldier atrocities on civilians, even worse than a bomb

I don't see how that means you can't apologise for the actions then, in this day and age - a sign to endeavour to not go to such extremes to best the enemy. And the nukes/firebombing were more than "just bombs" I'd say. The nukes have lasting impacts to this day and the firebombs are a horror of their own. You also have the matter that the nukes were possibly used more to scare Russia and force Japan far beyond into a surrender and into complete submission rather than "just doing what they had to".

War is bloody, and sometimes many horrors go on to try and get it to end - but we can look back now and realise the horrors we committed and learn from it, no? Push to not get the world into such a bloody conflict and realise that refusing to apologise for the atrocities doesn't do any good, especially when we so readily condemn others for not owning up to theirs.

Also, I think your hatred of Japan's stance and what they teach on the war is more than justified. Their own actions were horrendous, and well above what the "big issues" the allies did, I believe.
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Omega Hunter posted...

Wutobliteration posted...

E32005 posted...

considering what the Germans did to all of western europe's women and even worse-Russian women; its not surprising we won and got revenge.

except these are f***Ing civilians who werent the ones killing your countrymen.

Fuck that when people attack your family and "civilians" their family and civilians become fair game. Total war.

the type of quality folk we have on CE
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The Axis has no room to complain about anything.

I saw that.