Current Events > Amy Hennig: People ask for story based games but aren't buying them

(+) Yeah! (+)

D-Lo_BrownTown posted...

Maybe if the story driven games didn't try their god damned hardest to be movies i would be more inclined to buy them

What exactly is meant by this because at this point I suspect it has no actual meaning and is mindlessly parroted over and over.
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That's a bold faced lie. KOTOR 3 would sell like hotcakes and they know it
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And also, if nobody was buying them, they wouldn't keep being made.
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Holy shit, she is brainwashed by EA.

Games like Skyrim still sell well, and it's one of the best selling single player games till date.

BOTW, Fallout 4, The Last of Us, The Witcher 3, Assassin's Creed, Shadow of War, DOOM, etc.. all fantastic and widely acclaimed games with sales to show for it.

She actually believes the shit EA spoonfed her. EA shut down Visceral because they don't see a market in single player games (i.e.the can't nickel and dime every piece of content as dlc/lootboxes), and she just rolls over and plays dead.

This was pretty sad to read.
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Nazanir posted...

Holy shit, she is brainwashed by EA.

Games like Skyrim still sell well, and it's one of the best selling single player games till date.

BOTW, Fallout 4, The Last of Us, The Witcher 3, Assassin's Creed, Shadow of War, DOOM, etc.. all fantastic and widely acclaimed games with sales to show for it.

She actually believes the shit EA spoonfed her. EA shut down Visceral because they don't see a market in single player games (i.e.the can't nickel and dime every piece of content as dlc/lootboxes), and she just rolls over and plays dead.

This was pretty sad to read.

She was talking about linear, story based AAA games. Not open world games like Skyrim and Witcher 3.
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Darmik posted...

She was talking about linear, story based AAA games.

That's a lot of qualifiers.
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The sooner people accept that the traditional video game industry is being killed off by corporate greed, prioritizing superficiality and a cancerous consumer base, the sooner things can get better. The AAA gaming industry needs a hard reset and consumers need a reminder that they are entitled spoiled brats that ruin everything they turn their attention to. It doesnt matter how good gameplay is. Every goddamned thing better be perfect or it will be negatively memed.
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Darmik posted...

Nazanir posted...

Holy shit, she is brainwashed by EA.

Games like Skyrim still sell well, and it's one of the best selling single player games till date.

BOTW, Fallout 4, The Last of Us, The Witcher 3, Assassin's Creed, Shadow of War, DOOM, etc.. all fantastic and widely acclaimed games with sales to show for it.

She actually believes the shit EA spoonfed her. EA shut down Visceral because they don't see a market in single player games (i.e.the can't nickel and dime every piece of content as dlc/lootboxes), and she just rolls over and plays dead.

This was pretty sad to read.

She was talking about linear, story based AAA games. Not open world games like Skyrim and Witcher 3.

Like what? Uncharted sold well
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And they're watching someone else play them online because devs almost never really put the effort into the shit they're producing these days, that's why it's safer to keep that sixty bucks and just watch how the game plays out on someone else's expense (or, someone else's review code if they're popular).

The entire industry is shit and it needs to be built from the ground up again, but a crash happening once more is very unlikely as there's too much money to let it fall like before. So everybody loses, and nobody wins save for the investors at the top.
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Behaviorism posted...

That's a bold faced lie. KOTOR 3 would sell like hotcakes and they know it

Until the mob got their teeth into something they didnt like and then the game would be treated like the worst game ever made.
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EverDownward posted...

And they're watching someone else play them online because devs almost never really put the effort into the shit they're producing these days, that's why it's safer to keep that sixty bucks and just watch how the game plays out on someone else's expense (or, someone else's review code if they're popular).

The entire industry is shit and it needs to be built from the ground up again, but a crash happening once more is very unlikely as there's too much money to let it fall like before. So everybody loses, and nobody wins save for the investors at the top.

Dishonored 2 and Prey and The Evil Within 2 absolutely had effort put into them and they all underperformed iirc
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josifrees posted...

Behaviorism posted...

That's a bold faced lie. KOTOR 3 would sell like hotcakes and they know it

Until the mob got their teeth into something they didnt like and then the game would be treated like the worst game ever made.

No
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That's pretty disheartening coming from her. She was a big part of the team that fleshed out the Legacy of Kain games which were one of my favorites.

I can sort of relate to what she's talking about though. The only single player games I can focus on finishing now are Metroidvania type games. I picked up Andromeda around Thanksgiving and it sat on my coffee table for a month before I started it. I'm maybe 4 hours deep in the latest Star Ocean and have been away from it for so long I've probably forgot how to play. Most nights I'm on my PS4 involve promptly getting bombed with invites for Smite or ARK or GTA5 and in all honesty is usually more fun. Not always in regards to the game play itself but in the fun of just shooting the shit and playing games with your friends.
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Behaviorism posted...

Like what? Uncharted sold well

Uncharted now has everything she talked about.
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DarthAragorn posted...

EverDownward posted...

And they're watching someone else play them online because devs almost never really put the effort into the shit they're producing these days, that's why it's safer to keep that sixty bucks and just watch how the game plays out on someone else's expense (or, someone else's review code if they're popular).

The entire industry is shit and it needs to be built from the ground up again, but a crash happening once more is very unlikely as there's too much money to let it fall like before. So everybody loses, and nobody wins save for the investors at the top.

Dishonored 2 and Prey and The Evil Within 2 absolutely had effort put into them and they all underperformed iirc

That's because two of those games are made by a dev that clearly has love for cult classics from the past, and all three of them are published by Bethesda which has a pretty shitty record when it comes to what they're developing or producing. The paid mods scandal, the Creation Club fiasco, their reputation is tainted and people don't want to trust them. It's a damn shame Arkane is under their umbrella, because you can tell they have a lot of love for the Looking Glass games of the past, and Prey, especially, is pretty damn good.

I never said all of the devs, I said almost all of them and this is another case where a good dev is bogged by a shit publisher.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Dishonored 2 and Prey and The Evil Within 2 absolutely had effort put into them and they all underperformed iirc

Except for Dishonored 2 (which I think was a fluke sales-wise considering many loved the first) they were barely advertised. Hell, I don't remember seeing any ads for Evil Within.
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I don't think LPs are a bad thing. Most games don't release demos anymore, at least as far as I know, and official gameplay videos aren't trustworthy, so its a good way to see what a game is like. And a lot of times, I wouldn't even know about certain games or want them without LPs. I've seen LPs of games and wanted to buy them for myself whereas I never would have otherwise. True though that the reverse can be true.

I see why they would be a detriment to story heavy games with very little gameplay like Telltale games or something like Life is Strange though, but I think for most games, if the gameplay is entertaining and worth playing, that's a pretty decent incentive for most people to buy instead of watching an LP.

LJRENEGADE posted...

I see why they would be a detriment to story heavy games with very little gameplay like Telltale games or something like Life is Strange though

To be fair, for games that actually affected the LPer, they typically will try to implore their viewers to play it themselves first.
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EverDownward posted...

That's because two of those games are made by a dev that clearly has love for cult classics from the past, and all three of them are published by Bethesda which has a pretty s***ty record when it comes to what they're developing or producing. The paid mods scandal, the Creation Club fiasco, their reputation is tainted and people don't want to trust them. It's a damn shame Arkane is under their umbrella, because you can tell they have a lot of love for the Looking Glass games of the past, and Prey, especially, is pretty damn good.

Those controversies only impact Bethesda Game Studio titles and they have no issues selling at all.

dave_is_slick posted...

Except for Dishonored 2 (which I think was a fluke sales-wise considering many loved the first) they were barely advertised. Hell, I don't remember seeing any ads for Evil Within.

Bethesda marketed Evil Within 2 pretty hard.

I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the immersive sim games in the last few years bombed. They've been hit the worst.
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Darmik posted...

Those controversies only impact Bethesda Game Studio titles and they have no issues selling at all.

Yeah, let's see how well they do when the next Elder Scrolls is announced along side paid mods. Gonna sell real good, right? Won't have tremendous backlash at all, right?
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Darmik posted...

Bethesda marketed Evil Within 2 pretty hard.

Where? I literally did not see one thing about it.
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EverDownward posted...

Darmik posted...

Those controversies only impact Bethesda Game Studio titles and they have no issues selling at all.

Yeah, let's see how well they do when the next Elder Scrolls is announced along side paid mods. Gonna sell real good, right? Won't have tremendous backlash at all, right?

It will both have backlash and still sell a shitload.

It's an Elder Scrolls game. It has 0 chance of bombing.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

Bethesda marketed Evil Within 2 pretty hard.

Where? I literally did not see one thing about it.

Ads all over this site, loads of E3 coverage and I saw ads all over public transport here.

The buzz wasn't there though.
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I think it's a bit of a cop out answer. If you make a good enough game with good enough writing people buy it. The problem is they have unrealistic sales expectations for a lot of games, not people watching someone else play the game.

I can't imagine that a huge amount of people that watch someone play a particular game online don't also own the game themselves or have plans to get it themselves at some point. Maybe I'm wrong and there's just a massive amount of profit lost off of that, but I seriously doubt it.
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Darmik posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

People buy single player, story based games if they are good but they get labeled as disappointing or failures because the bar for success is artificially high.

Single player games have an uphill battle in general.

An Early Access multiplayer game can sell over 15 million copies. A single player game will flop if it has technical issues (or any sort of issue that catches on).

Someone can watch a stream or video of a single player game and never play it. Meanwhile I think streams and videos benefit multiplayer game sales.

On top of this you need to invest everything into the game before it's released. If it flops it's done. A multiplayer game can be restructured, patched, re-released or simply cut off early.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but single player games absolutely can be patched or rereleased.
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Esrac posted...

Maybe I'm missing your point, but single player games absolutely can be patched or rereleased.

You can't really restructure or try out new monetization models is what I mean.

Hitman is probably the closest example of a single player title that has experimented with a new model in a similar way. Not sure how successful it was for them considering they were sold off afterwards.
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Anecdotally, I can't really disagree with her statement that people just watch LPs because I know plenty of people who consider themselves to have "beaten" a game when they watch a playthrough on YouTube and have no inclination on actually getting the game and going through it themselves even when they get some cash.

A few visual novels on Steam have the devs just asking people to not stream or upload videos past certain points just because it's really easy for people to just watch that and not but the game.
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Darmik posted...

Esrac posted...

Maybe I'm missing your point, but single player games absolutely can be patched or rereleased.

You can't really restructure or try out new monetization models is what I mean.

Hitman is probably the closest example of a single player title that has experimented with a new model in a similar way. Not sure how successful it was for them considering they were sold off afterwards.

Ok. The way you phrased it brought to mind content patches and new version releases.
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Darmik posted...

Sales figures show she is

Darmik posted...

wrong

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Think about what single player games were like in the PS2 era. Stuff like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time and Splinter Cell. That's the kinda stuff that won't be made anymore. Which it's hard to blame considering the last two entries for these games flopped. Splinter Cell even can support multiplayer but it's not mainstream enough.

Super Mario Odyssey and Resident Evil 7 were the biggest exceptions last year. But those two are massive franchises.

Japan still releases some good linear single player stuff. Bayonetta 3 is a big exception but I doubt anyone expects that to sell well.

If a single player game doesn't fit an open world or some sort of multiplayer it has an uphill battle. Its only hope is to either be an established IP or carve out a specific, reliable niche (which isn't really an option for AAA games).
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Darmik posted...

Super Mario Odyssey and Resident Evil 7 were the biggest exceptions last year. But those two are massive franchises.

The problem with this is that most people hated RE6. And before that, most found 5 mediocre. It had a very tarnished reputation. RE7 did well because it was damn good game with good marketing.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

Super Mario Odyssey and Resident Evil 7 were the biggest exceptions last year. But those two are massive franchises.

The problem with this is that most people hated RE6. And before that, most found 5 mediocre. It had a very tarnished reputation. RE7 did well because it was damn good game with good marketing.

RE6 was a lot of fun with coop. Plus it had te beautiful butts of Sherri and Helena
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Darmik posted...

Think about what single player games were like in the PS2 era. Stuff like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time and Splinter Cell. That's the kinda stuff that won't be made anymore. Which it's hard to blame considering the last two entries for these games flopped. Splinter Cell even can support multiplayer but it's not mainstream enough.

Super Mario Odyssey and Resident Evil 7 were the biggest exceptions last year. But those two are massive franchises.

Japan still releases some good linear single player stuff. Bayonetta 3 is a big exception but I doubt anyone expects that to sell well.

If a single player game doesn't fit an open world or some sort of multiplayer it has an uphill battle. Its only hope is to either be an established IP or carve out a specific, reliable niche (which isn't really an option for AAA games).

Which is why most single player games are open world games, or RPGs, or a mixture of rhe two to some degree
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It's really sad, because although i don't doubt there's truth in what shes saying, i am one of the people who wants AND buys story-based games. I can't imagine settling for watching someone else play a game if i wanted to play it myself, that just seems bizarre.

I can play the occasional MP-heavy game every now and then, but i much prefer a good single player experience. If they stop making them, i'll most likely lose interest in buying new games altogether.
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Sphyx posted...

It's really sad, because although i don't doubt there's truth in what shes saying, i am one of the people who wants AND buys story-based games. I can't imagine settling for watching someone else play a game if i wanted to play it myself, that just seems bizarre.

I can play the occasional MP-heavy game every now and then, but i much prefer a good single player experience. If they stop making them, i'll most likely lose interest in buying new games altogether.

Likewise
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UnhndredDescole posted...

Darmik posted...

Japan still releases some good linear single player stuff. Bayonetta 3 is a big exception but I doubt anyone expects that to sell well.

Yeah tbh this is Japan's strong point. Japanese studios generally seem to care less about profit in that regard, more than western AAA studios at least.

I feel it's less that and more that they're just catering to the Japanese market. The obsession with open worlds and a lot of choices and character customization seems to be a western trend more than a Japanese one.
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It's a bit naive to pretend that this is a problem with only one cause. Publishers have dirty hands on this, too. Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, while not only a fantastic game, is also proof that you can make a AAA quality game without a publisher or their over inflated production costs.
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josifrees posted...

The sooner people accept that the traditional video game industry is being killed off by corporate greed, prioritizing superficiality and a cancerous consumer base, the sooner things can get better. The AAA gaming industry needs a hard reset and consumers need a reminder that they are entitled spoiled brats that ruin everything they turn their attention to. It doesnt matter how good gameplay is. Every goddamned thing better be perfect or it will be negatively memed.

Also this. Each side is as bad as each other. Companies like EA, 2K and Warner Bros are just awful and run by people who see their consumers as various money providing animals. Gamers are extremely entitled and demand nothing less than perfection. This industry could use some collapse.
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The Old Republic was not KotOR 3, and I'm willing to bet if ther was a "demand" poll, the latter would win.
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But then you've also got stuff like Uncharted and The Last of Us which sell extremely well.
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l Dudeboy l posted...

josifrees posted...

The sooner people accept that the traditional video game industry is being killed off by corporate greed, prioritizing superficiality and a cancerous consumer base, the sooner things can get better. The AAA gaming industry needs a hard reset and consumers need a reminder that they are entitled spoiled brats that ruin everything they turn their attention to. It doesnt matter how good gameplay is. Every goddamned thing better be perfect or it will be negatively memed.

Also this. Each side is as bad as each other. Companies like EA, 2K and Warner Bros are just awful and run by people who see their consumers as various money providing animals. Gamers are extremely entitled and demand nothing less than perfection. This industry could use some collapse.

Gamers really aren't entitled
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it's too bad amy got stuck working with naughty dog
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l Dudeboy l posted...

It's a bit naive to pretend that this is a problem with only one cause. Publishers have dirty hands on this, too. Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, while not only a fantastic game, is also proof that you can make a AAA quality game without a publisher or their over inflated production costs.

They did end up going with $30 digital only for that one so maybe the $60 retail model is the problem. Which does open the door for these sorts of games to find success on stuff like Xbox Game Pass too.

Gamer99z posted...

But then you've also got stuff like Uncharted and The Last of Us which sell extremely well.

They both have multiplayer, season passes and microtransactions.
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Darmik posted...

Gamer99z posted...

But then you've also got stuff like Uncharted and The Last of Us which sell extremely well.

They both have multiplayer, season passes and microtransactions.

To add to that, they only represent a handful of games that find success. The odds of any development team creating a very profitable game are not really favorable.
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This isn't even true.

Uncharted 4 sold 10 million copies

And only the gaming industry claims the consumer is entitled.

Consumers have the money, it's the responsibility of the saleperson to convince the consumer to buy their product.

If anything, EA and those companies feel entitled

That just because their shitty game has a huge budget, that consumers should have to pay for their shitty game

fuck off. Fuck EA

Darmik posted...

<Gamer99z posted...

But then you've also got stuff like Uncharted and The Last of Us which sell extremely well.

They both have multiplayer, season passes and microtransactions.

Even if you look at the trophies for those games, a low percentage of people even completed the online tutorial for U4. The people who bought those games didn't buy them for the multiplayer, it's just an added bonus that some people like. If Uncharted 4 didn't have multiplayer it still would be the best selling console exclusive game of this generation.
Uncharted 4 sold about 10m
Halo 5 sold about 5m
Breath of the Wild sold about 5m
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dave_is_slick posted...

What exactly is meant by this because at this point I suspect it has no actual meaning and is mindlessly parroted over and over.

It means exactly what it says.

I'm sick of buying AAA games that are not fun, but I'm supposed to think are masterpieces because the story is good or the graphics are great.

Uncharted 1-3 is like the poster children for this shit. Everyone on this board praises those games but they were some of the most uninspired, boring shit I ever played. And whenever I mention this, all I get is "Yeah, but the characters were good and there were a lot of cinematic moments."

But of course, this is just me. I don't think this feeling is the general reason *why* all these games are lagging in sales because not all of them are like this, but it's a trend that makes me very cautious when it comes to AAA single player games in general these days.