Board 8 > Has Superman ever escaped a Black hole?

(+) Yeah! (+)

ChampionCloud posted...

GranzonEx posted...

how is Goku going to punch someone that can move as fast as the Flash?

Goku (and friends) are so much faster than the Flash.... lol

The Flash exists in all moments of time simultaneously through the Speed Force. Time is spatial for the Flash.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

ChampionCloud posted...

The laws of the universe don't matter when strength makes it so you don't care about the laws of the universe. Being strong enough means you can just not care about space time, or what state you are in, or that you currently reside in a black hole, or magic or psychic powers, or someone taking over your mind and body.... NONE OF THAT MATTERS depending on your strength. So being a DC Apple means the same as any other Apple. And Goku as any Apple is still one hit killing Superman of anyone in DC or Marvel who isn't a literal level of the God of Christianity.

Incorrect. The laws of the universe still dictact reality. Goku has no strength unless it's dictated so by the universe. The universe has to allow Goku to exist as a function of said universe. Goku's strength is beholden to the reality that spawned him. Goku exists in said reality because Cogito Ergo Sum applies in any and all situations. Goku exists, therefore he is part and parcel a piece of the universe. Strength doesn't matter in this situation. His body is comprised of the properties of the universe in which he exists. Magic is not a strength or reality-based function. Magic is the functional equivalent to the anti-matter of reality. It is the anti-reality, that is, the underside of reality. The dark matter of existence. It is the glue that binds reality. There are no semantics that you can present here that dismiss that functionality. Goku can't "power out" of his own existence. It would require his body to no longer be made of matter that was created in his universe. And since that will never be the case unless he is completely eradicated from existence, Goku is subject to magic as the DC Universe defines it - it is clear from the fact that Dragon Ball has crossed over with universes that have Kevin Bacon'd their way into the DC Universe. Once you've done that, you've admitted that you are a part of Hypertime and therefore subject to magic. There's no "Miyamoto or whoever the fuck created Dragon Ball never said that's canon" involved. Crossovers exist and therefore, canon or not, they are part of Hypertime. That is the definition of Hypertime. Any and all possibilities become part and parcel the subject of Hypertime in its exponential multiplicity of infinite reality. Magic binds all realities in Hypertime and Goku is therefore an apple if Zatanna says he's an apple.

Boom. Nailed it. Mic drop. Goku is an apple.

In canon (the only thing that would matter to Goku... crossovers be damned) being an apple would not even be an inconvenience for Goku. (In fact as was pointed out in manga, he was actually more dangerous as a coffee flavored candy because he was so much harder to see).

Goku Apple is still stronger than virtually every other character in fiction (of course not counting things from his own DB universe which are stronger than him, but then also stronger than virtually all other characters in fiction)

ChampionCloud posted...

In canon (the only thing that would matter to Goku... crossovers be damned)

And... I won.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

ChampionCloud posted...

In canon (the only thing that would matter to Goku... crossovers be damned)

And... I won.

Also, the only crossover Goku and friends have ever been in is Naruto and one piece... things that ALSO haven't been in other crossovers except each other.

ChampionCloud posted...

Also, the only crossover Goku and friends have ever been in is Naruto and one piece... things that ALSO haven't been in other crossovers except each other.

Nope. Fighting games are crossovers that exist in Hypertime.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

ChampionCloud posted...

Also, the only crossover Goku and friends have ever been in is Naruto and one piece... things that ALSO haven't been in other crossovers except each other.

Nope. Fighting games are crossovers that exist in Hypertime.

First off, that's stupid beyond all reasonable thought.....

Second: by all means name a time that Goku, Luffy, or hyper ninja ****** were in fighting games that weren't in their own universe of characters....

ChampionCloud posted...

First off, that's stupid beyond all reasonable thought.....

Do you understand that every game that exists as noncanonical is in effect creating a splintered alternate reality? Therefore it's the definition of Hypertime.

Also it doesn't matter with WHOM they crossover, just the fact that they do.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Yes. He trapped a Sun-Eater in one and left without any real fanfare. He also kept a baby Sun-Eater in his Fortress at one point and used an anvil he made from black holes to splinter pieces of a sun to feed to it.

LMAO
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Yes. He trapped a Sun-Eater in one and left without any real fanfare. He also kept a baby Sun-Eater in his Fortress at one point and used an anvil he made from black holes to splinter pieces of a sun to feed to it.

LMAO

Hey if you can't enjoy the majesty of Grant Morrison's mind, there's no hope for ya!
---

Luffy can defeat Goku in J-Stars Vs

I've seen it with my own eyes
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

The Flash exists in all moments of time simultaneously through the Speed Force. Time is spatial for the Flash.

That's all he has though. It's not speed itself that lets him manipulate time, just his connection to the speedforce.

Goku etc are actually just fast. They would destroy the Flash, just like he is often defeated by things faster than him.
---

foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

The Flash exists in all moments of time simultaneously through the Speed Force. Time is spatial for the Flash.

That's all he has though. It's not speed itself that lets him manipulate time, just his connection to the speedforce.

Goku etc are actually just fast. They would destroy the Flash, just like he is often defeated by things faster than him.

You can't remove the connection to the Speed Force though. There's no off-switch to it. In fact, the Speed Force has been consistently portrayed as a shared self-created dimension that essentially only exists because speedsters eventually reach a point where reality can no longer function under the constraints of their speed and it essentially has to warp reality for them to function still. It's like, in some ways, "unlocking part of your brain" to operate.

That said, it's far from all the Flash has.

Also lol @ "things faster than him". It's clear that Wally West and current Barry have no equal in speed.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Wally West and current Barry have no equal

lol
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

The Flash exists in all moments of time simultaneously through the Speed Force. Time is spatial for the Flash.

That's all he has though. It's not speed itself that lets him manipulate time, just his connection to the speedforce.

Goku etc are actually just fast. They would destroy the Flash, just like he is often defeated by things faster than him.

You can't remove the connection to the Speed Force though. There's no off-switch to it. In fact, the Speed Force has been consistently portrayed as a shared self-created dimension that essentially only exists because speedsters eventually reach a point where reality can no longer function under the constraints of their speed and it essentially has to warp reality for them to function still. It's like, in some ways, "unlocking part of your brain" to operate.

That said, it's far from all the Flash has.

Also lol @ "things faster than him". It's clear that Wally West and current Barry have no equal in speed.

Just so we're on the same page here... the Dragon universe character by power scaling from original Dragonball are moving QUADRILLIONS of times faster than light..... so yeah.

There is literally nothing in any comic that comes close to again, even Krillin for power and speed. Let alone high tier like Goku or Vegeta.

Vegeta could literally without exaggeration kill every single character that has ever or will ever exist in DC and Marvel combined in less than a second and there is nothing anyone could remotely do about it.

That's the main reason UI Omen is the next thing. They are so incalcuably fast that the next step has to be attacking and dodging without thinking, because they move so fast that their minds are the only thing that can remotely hold them further back at all.

Just say Superman and people will bring in Goku...
---

foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Wally West and current Barry have no equal

lol

You think it's a contradictory statement but it's not. Wally West is the fastest man alive and Barry has the ability to slow his perception of reality more than anyone else. But typical foolmo thinking he knows, well, anything.
---

ChampionCloud posted...

moving QUADRILLIONS of times faster than light..... so yeah.

It's not speed anymore. Goku exists in time. Wally does not. Time is spatial for him.
---

ChampionCloud posted...

Vegeta could literally without exaggeration kill every single character that has ever or will ever exist in DC and Marvel combined in less than a second and there is nothing anyone could remotely do about it.

Oh, and this is, as always, nonsense. Vegeta killing Superman kills Vegeta. Superman is the grounded base of the creativity of the human mind, and to kill Superman ends fiction. All of it.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Wally West and current Barry have no equal

lol

You think it's a contradictory statement but it's not. Wally West is the fastest man alive and Barry has the ability to slow his perception of reality more than anyone else. But typical foolmo thinking he knows, well, anything.

1 Goku is faster (and all his fusions) cause his movements are actually instant, it's not speed, it just happens.
2: Show me either of them moving even a billion of times faster than light, let alone trillions, which still isn't close to DBverse.

ChampionCloud posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Wally West and current Barry have no equal

lol

You think it's a contradictory statement but it's not. Wally West is the fastest man alive and Barry has the ability to slow his perception of reality more than anyone else. But typical foolmo thinking he knows, well, anything.

1 Goku is faster (and all his fusions) cause his movements are actually instant, it's not speed, it just happens.
2: Show me either of them moving even a billion of times faster than light, let alone trillions, which still isn't close to DBverse.

That wasn't a response to you.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

ChampionCloud posted...

moving QUADRILLIONS of times faster than light..... so yeah.

It's not speed anymore. Goku exists in time. Wally does not. Time is spatial for him.

Goku is able to just ignore space and time dialation or freezing, or speed, or anything that has to do with time. You can't effect someone of his strength by time unless he allows it. (So is Vegeta, and probably Gohan, 17, Frieza, and maybe 18 and Piccolo, definitely Jiren)

ChampionCloud posted...

Goku is able to just ignore space and time dialation or freezing, or speed, or anything that has to do with time. Y

This is none of those things. You really aren't listening. Wally West literally does not exist in time. Your "strength" argument is utter nonsense. He can't ignore someone else's existence in every moment of time. It's not a "no he is faster than that." There's no speed involved.

Furthermore, he can't ignore the immutability of Hypertime, which is not a force, not a god, not a "thing". It is the fabric of reality, the yin to the yang of magic, the very substance of being. It's like saying, "Goku is not atoms linked together." This is even more basic than that. Goku not only exists, but was once whistled into existence by Superman. The fact of the matter is that - thanks to Hypertime - Superman made Goku.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

You think it's a contradictory statement but it's not. Wally West is the fastest man alive and Barry has the ability to slow his perception of reality more than anyone else. But typical foolmo thinking he knows, well, anything.

It is contradictory, one is faster than the other
---

foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

You think it's a contradictory statement but it's not. Wally West is the fastest man alive and Barry has the ability to slow his perception of reality more than anyone else. But typical foolmo thinking he knows, well, anything.

It is contradictory, one is faster than the other

One has faster velocity, the other has a faster reaction time. They are both faster than each other. Wow, it's like nuance is a thing.
---

...Has this become a joke topic? Is MWC seriously trying to argue that DB characters can move millions of time faster than light now
---

The topic? No, as always, the joke is MWC himself.
---

NFUN posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

No i think that would be when he whistled the multiverse into existence.

Eh. You'll have to get LotM to be sure (or ask me again in a year), but I've heard that past the Schwarzchild radius, there are no paths in space-time that lead away from the black hole.

Light moves at a constant speed in all reference frames, but the escape velocity of another body refers to the speed needed to escape the body from the surface. If light always moves at the same velocity, it should move at c near the center and at the edge. This implies that space-time itself must be curved to the point of no escape. Or something.

I mean, yes but it's my understanding that Superman can "move faster than the speed of light".

The whole "all of space is curved inwards in a black hole" thing is what you get as a result of the fact that no particle in the universe can travel faster than the speed of light. The entire space time curvature equation is made with that assumption.

So...maybe explain to me first how the fuck Superman travels faster than the speed of light, and if you can explain that, it should become trivial to explain how he escapes a black hole.
---

Yo the Ninja Turtles are gonna beat the crap out of Superman a few months from now
---

And Nappas gonna beat Beerus
---

most_games_r_ok posted...

...Has this become a joke topic? Is MWC seriously trying to argue that DB characters can move millions of time faster than light now

They can. Whis alone we know is moving faster than comprehendable and that's not at fighting speed.

He can traverse the entire Universe (30 billion light years) in less than a half hour.... would you care to do that math real quick... They aren't moving BILLIONS of times faster than light. They are moving quadrillion's of times faster. And that wasn't a mistake either, that was the intention, because both arithmetic and power scaling put it in the quadrillion's. It would be different if one did but not the other, but both power scaling and arithmetic off feats leads to the same number.

Super is broken. DB there actually WERE characters (besides like true creator gods) that couod beat them (not Supes of course, but tons). These don't exist anymore in Super. They are able to tank everything including time, mid tier characters are Universe busters, high tier are omni verse busters, they can dimension distort just fro strength, don't need any reality warping abilities, in the case of Goku can now officially tank death, the list goes on and on. They are faster and stronger than everyone else in fiction, (except each other) and in the case of fighting the high tier are smarter too. There is more they can do now that they previously weren't able to do (someday I might make a list of ridiculous Super stuff)

metroid composite posted...

NFUN posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

No i think that would be when he whistled the multiverse into existence.

Eh. You'll have to get LotM to be sure (or ask me again in a year), but I've heard that past the Schwarzchild radius, there are no paths in space-time that lead away from the black hole.

Light moves at a constant speed in all reference frames, but the escape velocity of another body refers to the speed needed to escape the body from the surface. If light always moves at the same velocity, it should move at c near the center and at the edge. This implies that space-time itself must be curved to the point of no escape. Or something.

I mean, yes but it's my understanding that Superman can "move faster than the speed of light".

The whole "all of space is curved inwards in a black hole" thing is what you get as a result of the fact that no particle in the universe can travel faster than the speed of light. The entire space time curvature equation is made with that assumption.

So...maybe explain to me first how the fuck Superman travels faster than the speed of light, and if you can explain that, it should become trivial to explain how he escapes a black hole.

Fair point. I wonder what would happen if an Albecurrie drive tried to escape from a black hole.
---

Superman does train tho. He learned martial arts from a master in the bottle city of Kandor where Superman doesn't have powers.

This argument is literally "Well this character has being the fastest thing as his entire character point, to the point reality writes itself to compensate how fast he's going and conventional laws of motion don't apply..." "NUH UH GOKU IS SUPER DUPER BILLION FASTER"
---

this is my favorite topic
---

DeathChicken posted...

This argument is literally "Well this character has being the fastest thing as his entire character point, to the point reality writes itself to compensate how fast he's going and conventional laws of motion don't apply..." "NUH UH GOKU IS SUPER DUPER BILLION FASTER"

So you think Flash can move quadrillion's of times faster than light?

ChampionCloud posted...

DeathChicken posted...

This argument is literally "Well this character has being the fastest thing as his entire character point, to the point reality writes itself to compensate how fast he's going and conventional laws of motion don't apply..." "NUH UH GOKU IS SUPER DUPER BILLION FASTER"

So you think Flash can move quadrillion's of times faster than light?

I think scarlet was saying that, to the Flash, speed is irrelevant. Velocity is the change in position over the change in time, but time in this manner doesn't exist to the Flash. Goku moves fast. The Flash can change his location in time as you might change your location in space. Goku can move from one location to another in a short time. The Flash can change his location in space or time, and, as such, he has a mastery of "speed" that Goku cannot dream of.

In summary: your question can't be answered because it doesn't make sense. Might as well ask an animated 2 dimensional drawing if it can jump higher than a person.
---

i'm thinkin we need a triple threat mpfc match
---

NFUN posted...

ChampionCloud posted...

DeathChicken posted...

This argument is literally "Well this character has being the fastest thing as his entire character point, to the point reality writes itself to compensate how fast he's going and conventional laws of motion don't apply..." "NUH UH GOKU IS SUPER DUPER BILLION FASTER"

So you think Flash can move quadrillion's of times faster than light?

I think scarlet was saying that, to the Flash, speed is irrelevant. Velocity is the change in position over the change in time, but time in this manner doesn't exist to the Flash. Goku moves fast. The Flash can change his location in time as you might change your location in space. Goku can move from one location to another in a short time. The Flash can change his location in space or time, and, as such, he has a mastery of "speed" that Goku cannot dream of.

In summary: your question can't be answered because it doesn't make sense. Might as well ask an animated 2 dimensional drawing if it can jump higher than a person.

Goku's IT does the same thing in space As for time, as has been said, high tier DB characters just tank time.... Flash can't do anything to him based on time. Goku is now well above that. He used to have to go KK20 SSJB to do it, now just normal SSJB is enough.

GameFAQS Flash vs. Pre-Crisis Superman vs. MWC Goku sounds like a legitimate match
---

VeryInsane posted...

GameFAQS Flash vs. Pre-Crisis Superman vs. MWC Goku sounds like a legitimate match

Actually the best match would be Animal Man vs. anyone or Plastic Man vs. anyone. The latter is especially interesting in that, while he can't beat anyone, he is apparently has such elasticity and regeneration that wiping him from existence just sees him bounce back from that, too.
---

VeryInsane posted...

GameFAQS Flash vs. Pre-Crisis Superman vs. MWC Goku sounds like a legitimate match

Unlike GameFAQs Flash which is completely made up I can tell you and give you (usually multiple) canon moments for every claim I've made. I've made fun of them for terrible writing. But they exist.

Oh damn we should do Silver Age Superman vs. Goku for worst writing.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh damn we should do Silver Age Superman vs. Goku for worst writing.

Were they just writing Superman bad at the time, or all of DC? Cause if it's just Superman DB wins as they are bad writing virtually every character simultaneously. (Except Frieza and 17... you keep being you)

Silver Age Superman at its worse is really, really bad.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/f/f1/Superdickery-1.png/revision/latest?cb=20110913194513

I mean, yours might be worse, but shit. This stuff is pretty damning.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Silver Age Superman at its worse is really, really bad.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/f/f1/Superdickery-1.png/revision/latest?cb=20110913194513

I mean, yours might be worse, but shit. This stuff is pretty damning.

what why
---

GranzonEx posted...

how is Goku going to punch someone that can move as fast as the Flash?

Goku vs Hit
---

NFUN posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Silver Age Superman at its worse is really, really bad.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/f/f1/Superdickery-1.png/revision/latest?cb=20110913194513

I mean, yours might be worse, but shit. This stuff is pretty damning.

what why

You think THAT'S bad...
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/jimmy_olsen.jpg
---

These are pretty incredible....

He even infected Batman with his douchey behavior!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jl0R2HU3Tc8/U0wMxKstP8I/AAAAAAAACMg/YaI991y2UK8/s1600/itallmakessense.jpg
---

I don't understand
---