Current Events > Kindergarten girl went home crying and scared she might turn into a boy

(+) Yeah! (+)

Callixtus posted...

I choose to tie the definition of a person's gender to something concrete, ie the combination of chromosomes and anatomical expressions

That's not what gender is. That's biological sex. And even then those don't always align with strict male/female.
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Tmk posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

ITP children aren't sexually abused or coceried into things that are wrong.

They also don't report the creepy uncle because they don't know what even happened since they know nothing about sex.

See the stupidity?

Well I read your post so yes.

Medz2017 posted...

are transracials at odds with reality?

Gonna quote this as well because what I'm about to say applies equally to both: a clear sign you lost the argument, is when you try to argue about other things. "WELL WHAT ABOUT THIS"

Yeah no. You lost the argument about transgender, and are trying to act like "well if I argue about this other stuff, maybe I can come back ahead!"

Make arguments about why it's not okay for kids to learn about transgender people. Don't scatterbrain around throwing stuff at a wall until something sticks.

Good, I'm glad you admitted you now realize how stupid your comment about sex ed not being important to children was.

I agree, it was really fucking stupid to assume children have a greater chance of dealing with a transgender than dealing with abuse.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

they probably should have waited till the kids were older, but I think the teacher was coming at it from a good place. She wasn't trying to brainwash the kids, she was trying to explain stuff on the behalf of another student.

I mean, you can't expect a trans child to be able to explain their situation on their own to other kids, do you?

The question of whether kids should be transitioning to begin with is a whole other issue, but in this case, the teacher and the students were forced to address the concept of transgenderism because it was right in front of them.

Literally impossible for a child to legitimately be transgender.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

Sir Will posted...

LittleRoyal posted...

But schools want to get kids at a young age so they don't have time to form their own opinions. The younger you convince them of your ways the better your ideology seems to them.

Oh please. No, that's what parents do. Religion, anyone? Parents don't disappear. They can still teach their backwards beliefs to their kids. But it's the job of the school to present the facts and encourage tolerance and understanding.

Ideally, maybe. We can always pretend that's what actually happens or something.

Lol. Or like all parents are forcing their beliefs. Most people I talk to had parents who were fairly vague on what their child should believe, politically and religiously. Sure parents say we should go to church but that's because they're raising you, and they're going, and they think it's best for you


Your teacher? Telling you you have to accept things like this and see things this way? Science doesn't at all understand Trans we just accept it which is fine, but it doesn't mean young children should be taught about it like it's fact. Again, that type of teaching (getting a political issue you feel strongly with, pretending it's proven fact) has been used in bad times in bad places.
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I'm not sure what transgender really means. I'm assuming it's like an evolution of gay.

So like if there is a little 5 yr old boy who identifies as a girl, then that's transgender. But he (she?) likes a girl then that makes him(her?) gay. Right?
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Callixtus posted...

I choose to tie the definition of a person's gender to something concrete, ie the combination of chromosomes and anatomical expressions, not to unmeasurable subjective evaluations that only muddle what we mean when we say man or woman.

You do realise humans aren't born existing in a uniform dichotomy of cleanly identical either males or females right?

Nothing's really that simple. And it's not like there's no scientific basis for the existence of being transgender either. It sounds like you just don't understand the brain at all nor want to or maybe even believe anyone can so just want to take it out of the equation entirely...but, that's not gonna work, because it's us. That's what we are, entirely.
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darkjedilink posted...

Literally impossible for a child to legitimately be transgender.

just as wrong as the first time you said it.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

Callixtus posted...

As I have already stated, I do not trust the schools or some random teacher to adequately distinguish between the two. Therefore, the parents were completely justified in being outraged at the school board. This teacher unannounced and unilaterally began to teach 5 year olds unknown lessons about transgenderism without informing the parents. That is irresponsible and an abuse of power.

You can't expect schools to run everything they teach by the parents before they teach it. If you want complete control over what your child is taught, homeschool them. That's what the Amish do. :u

It is very likely that the teacher or the school district knew that they were violating the trust of the parents. Transgenderism is a very controversial issue at this time, and it is not surprising at all that the parents had a reaction, especially since this was imposed on their toddlers without any prior notice. To pretend that this is not out of the ordinary is to be purposefully obtuse.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

Good, I'm glad you admitted

I'm glad you demonstrated you have nothing valid to say so resorted to the cliche "I'll just pretend you agree with me" shtick.
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Sir Will posted...

Mr_MacPhisto posted...

Transgenderism in children is wrong. PERIOD.

No. It's a thing whether you like it or not. And forcing them into an identity that's not theirs is deadly.

Literally not a thing. Gender dysphoria doesn't become a thing until adulthood.

Never mind that kids don't understand gender in the first place.
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darkjedilink posted...

Sir Will posted...

Mr_MacPhisto posted...

Transgenderism in children is wrong. PERIOD.

No. It's a thing whether you like it or not. And forcing them into an identity that's not theirs is deadly.

Literally not a thing. Gender dysphoria doesn't become a thing until adulthood.

Never mind that kids don't understand gender in the first place.

BULLSHIT
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Medussa posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Literally impossible for a child to legitimately be transgender.

just as wrong as the first time you said it.

Not according to science.
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Tmk posted...

Callixtus posted...

I choose to tie the definition of a person's gender to something concrete, ie the combination of chromosomes and anatomical expressions, not to unmeasurable subjective evaluations that only muddle what we mean when we say man or woman.

You do realise humans aren't born existing in a uniform dichotomy of cleanly identical either males or females right?

Nothing's really that simple. And it's not like there's no scientific basis for the existence of being transgender either. It sounds like you just don't understand the brain at all nor want to or maybe even believe anyone can so just want to take it out of the equation entirely...but, that's not gonna work, because it's us. That's what we are, entirely.

Even intersex humans typically lean more towards the male or female sex. I have never heard of a human being that was completely ambiguous.

That said, the brain is elastic, and reacts to its environmental inputs. The vast majority of children who are confused about their gender at a young age when they are still developing grow out of it and completely identify with the gender corresponding to their sex. We should allow children to develop as they normally would, not impose ideological views on them at a young age, which may ultimately push children who are right on the line between normal gender identity and gender dysphoria over the edge into a disorder which may require them to undergo hormone therapy, sexual reassignment surgery, and years of counseling.

This is common sense from any perspective you want to look at it, except the progressive gender ideological one, which countenances encouraging children down a path which will cause them to destroy parts of their body and undergo expensive medical treatments.
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Callixtus posted...

It is very likely that the teacher or the school district knew that they were violating the trust of the parents. Transgenderism is a very controversial issue at this time, and it is not surprising at all that the parents had a reaction, especially since this was imposed on their toddlers without any prior notice. To pretend that this is not out of the ordinary is to be purposefully obtuse.

There was a literal transgender kid in the class with them. She had to address it. Jesus man, are you really this dense?
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darkjedilink posted...

Medussa posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Literally impossible for a child to legitimately be transgender.

just as wrong as the first time you said it.

Not according to science.

then by all means cite some.
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LittleRoyal posted...

Your teacher? Telling you you have to accept things like this and see things this way? Science doesn't at all understand Trans we just accept it which is fine, but it doesn't mean young children should be taught about it like it's fact. Again, that type of teaching (getting a political issue you feel strongly with, pretending it's proven fact) has been used in bad times in bad places.

It is not a political issue.

3khc posted...

I'm not sure what transgender really means. I'm assuming it's like an evolution of gay.

So like if there is a little 5 yr old boy who identifies as a girl, then that's transgender. But he (she?) likes a girl then that makes him(her?) gay. Right?

Sexuality and gender identity are different.

Yes if a boy feels he's a girl he could be trans (I say could because it can be a complicated thing which is why you get experts involved as well as see how it evolves). But, in general, yes, you're trans if your biological sex doesn't match your gender identity.

A boy who feels he's a girl is a girl. If they girl likes girls then she'd be gay.
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What? You can't just pretend emotions trump reality though
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darkjedilink posted...

Sir Will posted...

Mr_MacPhisto posted...

Transgenderism in children is wrong. PERIOD.

No. It's a thing whether you like it or not. And forcing them into an identity that's not theirs is deadly.

Literally not a thing. Gender dysphoria doesn't become a thing until adulthood.

Never mind that kids don't understand gender in the first place.

That is demonstrably wrong.
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

Callixtus posted...

It is very likely that the teacher or the school district knew that they were violating the trust of the parents. Transgenderism is a very controversial issue at this time, and it is not surprising at all that the parents had a reaction, especially since this was imposed on their toddlers without any prior notice. To pretend that this is not out of the ordinary is to be purposefully obtuse.

There was a literal transgender kid in the class with them. She had to address it. Jesus man, are you really this dense?

If it was clear that this issue was so pressing that it demanded attention, then why did she not inform the parents that this controversial subject was going to be discussed with children that were 5 years old? What harm could it do to inform parents of the pressing need, instead of assuming that they would be perfectly fine allowing this teacher to broach a politically sensitive topic, in the right way?

Also it is probably inaccurate to say that a 5 year old in the class was transgender. Children that young are still developing, and the vast majority of questioning children at that age grow out of it and identify with their birth sex.
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Tmk posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

Good, I'm glad you admitted

I'm glad you demonstrated you have nothing valid to say so resorted to the cliche "I'll just pretend you agree with me" shtick.

You did agree with me.

You should have worded your retort that my post was stupid better. Not my fault you literally wrote that you read my post and see the stupidity without specifying that you found my post to be stupid.

Don't get mad at me you fucked up and I took advantage of it. Don't be mad at me that I'm not only interested in my biased beliefs either.

I get it, you don't care about child abuse because you weren't affected by it. You care about this issue because you or someone you know likely was.

That's fine but don't be a pretentious douche and dismiss something that's far more prevalent in society (abuse) because it leaves you in a position where you have to agree sex ed should be taught at the same time or you have to admit your whole argument falls apart logically.

So come back with something better or don't respond. No one cares about your "witty retort".
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Sir Will posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Sir Will posted...

Mr_MacPhisto posted...

Transgenderism in children is wrong. PERIOD.

No. It's a thing whether you like it or not. And forcing them into an identity that's not theirs is deadly.

Literally not a thing. Gender dysphoria doesn't become a thing until adulthood.

Never mind that kids don't understand gender in the first place.

That is demonstrably wrong.

Agreed. Jazz Jennings. There.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

Tmk posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

ITP children aren't sexually abused or coceried into things that are wrong.

They also don't report the creepy uncle because they don't know what even happened since they know nothing about sex.

See the stupidity?

Well I read your post so yes.

Medz2017 posted...

are transracials at odds with reality?

Gonna quote this as well because what I'm about to say applies equally to both: a clear sign you lost the argument, is when you try to argue about other things. "WELL WHAT ABOUT THIS"

Yeah no. You lost the argument about transgender, and are trying to act like "well if I argue about this other stuff, maybe I can come back ahead!"

Make arguments about why it's not okay for kids to learn about transgender people. Don't scatterbrain around throwing stuff at a wall until something sticks.

Good, I'm glad you admitted you now realize how stupid your comment about sex ed not being important to children was.

I agree, it was really fucking stupid to assume children have a greater chance of dealing with a transgender than dealing with abuse.

I just asked him what he thought...
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The argument of the brain being elastic kinda torpedoes your whole argument's premise though. You can't really let someone develop in society without things being imposed on them about how they should be. Society is constantly telling you how you should be 24/7 one way or another.

If you think someone could be pushed to being transgender by things being imposed on them, the exact opposite could happen as well then (and much more likely to, since that's what our society pushes more by far). However I sense the fundamental problem with your stance, Callixtus, is that you're hung up on classifying being transgender as a "disorder" that should be suppressed if at all possible.


Ultimately this "concern" over indoctrinating children also rings extremely hollow because it's as though a large chunk of people have just been asleep for 99% of what happens to children growing up from their parents, school, toys, church, country as a whole really. And yet even in a super religious household, sometimes children born to those end up being diehard atheists.

So it's not really a concern about indoctrinating children and not giving them breathing room to developer their own views, it's a concern about "indoctrinating" them to have a view you don't personally like, in this case that it's okay to be transgender and that such people exist.
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Sir Will posted...

Callixtus posted...

I choose to tie the definition of a person's gender to something concrete, ie the combination of chromosomes and anatomical expressions

That's not what gender is. That's biological sex. And even then those don't always align with strict male/female.

why not teach both?
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Zeeak4444 posted...

You did agree with me.

You should have worded your retort that my post was stupid better.

Oh you're full of shit. If you actually thought I had agreed with you that is not remotely how you would have responded. As though saying stuff someone posted is stupid in an argument, and the response from them being "Oh you're right I agree" is such a common occurrence that that's how you'd respond. Good lord dude.
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Tmk posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

You did agree with me.

You should have worded your retort that my post was stupid better.

Oh you're full of shit. If you actually thought I had agreed with you that is not remotely how you would have responded. As though saying stuff someone posted is stupid in an argument, and the response from them being "Oh you're right I agree" is such a common occurrence that that's how you'd respond. Good lord dude.

If you kept reading you would have saw the next sentenced said I realized fully what you were saying and took advantage of your poor wording.

This whole post was pointless since I already admitted it in the post you quoted.

Let's talk about the actual content now huh? No more ignoring the point. Should sex ed be teached in kindergarten too?

I just want some consistency.
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Callixtus posted...

Also it is probably inaccurate to say that a 5 year old in the class was transgender. Children that young are still developing, and the vast majority of questioning children at that age grow out of it and identify with their birth sex.

For the time being that is what they'd be considered. If it changes then fine.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

Let's talk about the actual content now huh? Should sex ed be teached in kindergarten too?

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/75700605/885310511
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Tmk posted...

The argument of the brain being elastic kinda torpedoes your whole argument's premise though. You can't really let someone develop in society without things being imposed on them about how they should be. Society is constantly telling you how you should be 24/7 one way or another.

If you think someone could be pushed to being transgender by things being imposed on them, the exact opposite could happen as well then (and much more likely to, since that's what our society pushes more by far). However I sense the fundamental problem with your stance, Callixtus, is that you're hung up on classifying being transgender as a "disorder" that should be suppressed if at all possible.


Ultimately this "concern" over indoctrinating children also rings extremely hollow because it's as though a large chunk of people have just been asleep for 99% of what happens to children growing up from their parents, school, toys, church, country as a whole really. And yet even in a super religious household, sometimes children born to those end up being diehard atheists.

So it's not really a concern about indoctrinating children and not giving them breathing room to developer their own views, it's a concern about "indoctrinating" them to have a view you don't personally like, in this case that it's okay to be transgender and that such people exist.

If I had to render a guess, most super religious households produce religious children. On balance, they probably produce atheists far less.

Society can and should work against promoting transgenderism. Because transgenderism is indeed a disorder just like apotemnophilia is. At best, transgenderism is the state of feeling uncomfortable with your physical reality, and at worst it is a serious mental illness which requires thousands of dollars, years of counseling, and intense medical interventions to address. Even after undergoing SRS many transpeople are still severely depressed and experience a wide array of mental illnesses. Every person who might become a transgender because of the new cultural environment we have created is a result of a societal failure.

We should tolerate and love transpeople because they are suffering from intense mental illnesses for which they should not be blamed. But we should not be encouraging such things ideologically.
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Medz2017 posted...

Sir Will posted...

Callixtus posted...

I choose to tie the definition of a person's gender to something concrete, ie the combination of chromosomes and anatomical expressions

That's not what gender is. That's biological sex. And even then those don't always align with strict male/female.

why not teach both?

They would? Conservatives are the ones against teaching very basic biology/sex ed to young children.
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Sir Will posted...

Callixtus posted...

Also it is probably inaccurate to say that a 5 year old in the class was transgender. Children that young are still developing, and the vast majority of questioning children at that age grow out of it and identify with their birth sex.

For the time being that is what they'd be considered. If it changes then fine.

the "the majority grow out of it" meme is because of some shitty research by a biased asshole. He grouped every child that showed any bit of gender-nonconformity, then tried to draw conclusions about trans people in particular from them. it's a textbook example of warping statistics to fit a narrative.
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I would say that the teacher probably didn't teach it in the best way, but it did have to be done with a student that was going through it being in front of them.

Isn't it amazing the things that parents rely on teachers to show their kids for the first time? Honestly, this should be something that is at least mildly touched on by parents by the time their kids are going out socially such as in school.
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Callixtus posted...

Society can and should work against promoting transgenderism.

And see, yeah I don't fathom there's a bridge long enough to go over the gap between this view and mine on the matter. I don't think there's much else to say about it really either. I doubt there's anything that would change this view. Save for very personal direct experience perhaps, but even that wouldn't be assured.
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Callixtus posted...

Society can and should work against promoting transgenderism.

And you know what would happen? More violence towards us. Your comment here is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. We don't choose to be who we are. We just are. Having society against us does nothing but encourages violence and suicide. Just accept us. Why is this so fucking hard?
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Tmk posted...

Callixtus posted...

Society can and should work against promoting transgenderism.

And see, yeah I don't fathom there's a bridge long enough to go over the gap between this view and mine on the matter. I don't think there's much else to say about it really either. I doubt there's anything that would change this view. Save for very personal direct experience perhaps, but even that wouldn't be assured.

Y'know, I touched on this in a similar topic once before. Children are actually far better able to learn these sorts of new ideas, because they will still think for themselves. They haven't been indoctrinated to accept outside information as gospel yet.
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Medussa posted...

Sir Will posted...

Callixtus posted...

Also it is probably inaccurate to say that a 5 year old in the class was transgender. Children that young are still developing, and the vast majority of questioning children at that age grow out of it and identify with their birth sex.

For the time being that is what they'd be considered. If it changes then fine.

the "the majority grow out of it" meme is because of some shitty research by a biased asshole. He grouped every child that showed any bit of gender-nonconformity, then tried to draw conclusions about trans people in particular from them. it's a textbook example of warping statistics to fit a narrative.

Good point. An actual diagnosis would not be made lightly and acting like the other gender or even wishing they were the other gender and actually believing that's what you are, aren't the same thing.
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Sylph posted...

I would say that the teacher probably didn't teach it in the best way, but it did have to be done with a student that was going through it being in front of them.

Isn't it amazing the things that parents rely on teachers to show their kids for the first time? Honestly, this should be something that is at least mildly touched on by parents by the time their kids are going out socially such as in school.

True.

27_Sandman_40 posted...

Somewhere an otherwise healthy young boy/girl is now going to grow up confused as fuck and end up becoming mentally unstable, possibly suicidal because of teaching politics in kindergarden.

Good job America. I played house with my neighbors when I was younger. If I was born in 2017 my parents would make me a girl.

No troll.
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Tmk posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

Let's talk about the actual content now huh? Should sex ed be teached in kindergarten too?

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/75700605/885310511

So you have nothing to say. Got it.
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Actually yeah, I should have also said that that right there, "society can and should work against promoting transgenderism" is by far way more destructive and deadly to transgender people than anything else you think you're trying to protect people from.

Like, literally, if there's a transgender person and you want society to nudge them over to being normal as opposed to unusual, if you succeed...that is brainwashing. You took their identity, and suppressed it, and let's be honest: it's through extensive threat of harm and ostracisation.

Wanna talk about indoctrination, that right there is as reprehensible as it gets. It reminds me of "pray away the gay" and crap like that.
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kindergarteners do not understand sex. Teach them sex?
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Medz2017 posted...

kindergarteners do not understand sex. Teach them sex?

If you just wanted to talk about another subject, why not just make another topic?
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Zeeak4444 posted...

So you have nothing to say. Got it.

You appear to have nothing to say about the subject at hand, and I'm not going to entertain derailments. This isn't my first dumb internet argument, duder, I know how this works. Someone isn't doing too well with the argument at hand, so they try to make it about OTHER pocket arguments to try and win ground SOMEWHERE.

Straight up, if you had the competence to argue about transgender people, you'd be putting forth those arguments. Not arguing about OTHER things. Consistency is irrelevant, this is about transgender people and teaching kids about them, not my personal collection of beliefs.
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Medz2017 posted...

kindergarteners do not understand sex. Teach them sex?

He won't answer. Abuse isn't something he cares enough about to warrant it being taught in school.
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Sayoria posted...

Callixtus posted...

Society can and should work against promoting transgenderism.

And you know what would happen? More violence towards us. Your comment here is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. We don't choose to be who we are. We just are. Having society against us does nothing but encourages violence and suicide. Just accept us. Why is this so fucking hard?

Another strawman argument.

I've already said we should tolerate transgenderism, and love transgender people. But we should not be promoting it. I know this is too subtle a point for many people on CE to understand.

We should punish bullies and arrest people who harass or assault transgender people, and ultimately preach a message of tolerance. That is as far as I go. I do not go as far as waving a rainbow flag and calling anyone who doesn't want their child exposed to left wing cultural Marxism a bigot. It is not bigoted to not want your child to suffer from what I believe is a disorder nor to wish to see a disorder promoted.
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Tmk posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

So you have nothing to say. Got it.

You appear to have nothing to say about the subject at hand, and I'm not going to entertain derailments. This isn't my first dumb internet argument, duder, I know how this works. Someone isn't doing too well with the argument at hand, so they try to make it about OTHER pocket arguments to try and win ground SOMEWHERE.

Straight up, if you had the competence to argue about transgender people, you'd be putting forth those arguments. Not arguing about OTHER things. Consistency is irrelevant, this is about transgender people and teaching kids about them, not my personal collection of beliefs.

Ya, and yet you still can't realize I don't have a problem with the topic at hand period which is why I never said anything outright against it.

I have a problem with what you said on a "totally unrelated subject" and you can't do anything but shy away from it.. try again.

Edit: for the future, don't say dumb shit when you're emotional and you won't get called out on saying dumb shit.
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Medussa posted...

Sir Will posted...

Callixtus posted...

Also it is probably inaccurate to say that a 5 year old in the class was transgender. Children that young are still developing, and the vast majority of questioning children at that age grow out of it and identify with their birth sex.

For the time being that is what they'd be considered. If it changes then fine.

the "the majority grow out of it" meme is because of some shitty research by a biased asshole. He grouped every child that showed any bit of gender-nonconformity, then tried to draw conclusions about trans people in particular from them. it's a textbook example of warping statistics to fit a narrative.

There are many instances in the media already of parents with children around 4 or 5 years old, who have expressed some mild gender confusion, and then the parents go completely overboard and start to call their child by the opposite gender pronouns and forcing them to act like the opposite gender, when there is no reason to believe that child is actually going to grow up as a transgender person.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

Ya, and yet you still can't realize I don't have a problem with the topic at hand period which is why I never said anything outright against it.

Well you're just pooping up the topic then for your own issues. Poor show.
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My daughter wants to be a ninja. Classes will be expensive but shell be a badass. Il start her transition.
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