Current Events > Is that surgeon still going to do that head transplant?

(+) Yeah! (+)

?
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Fuck if I know.

I really, really doubt it. For one, transecting the spinal cord like that will leave the patient at best a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic. That's actually a worse outcome than what the current "volunteer patient" is going through. Overwhelmingly likely though, they just die on the table.

It wouldn't pass an ethics committee for a million years. It's bad science and bad medicine.
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This is such a sad story. The guy would rather die with hope than live with his disability even though there's only like a 0.0001% chance of success. I kind of hope he changes his mind about going through with it and finds a reason to keep living but that seems unlikely.
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SpiralDrift posted...

This is such a sad story. The guy would rather die with hope than live with his disability even though there's only like a 0.0001% chance of success. I kind of hope he changes his mind about going through with it and finds a reason to keep living but that seems unlikely.

Isn't the dude expected to die within a couple years anyways because of the condition?
I mean honestly I'd rather them let some doctor(s) Frankenstein me up for science and than gradually getting worse and worse until I just die. I wouldn't bother having any relationships or anything because knowing I'm going to die would just make me feel too selfish for that. I'd basically just be a recluse waiting for death otherwise.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

I really, really doubt it. For one, transecting the spinal cord like that will leave the patient at best a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic. That's actually a worse outcome than what the current "volunteer patient" is going through. Overwhelmingly likely though, they just die on the table.

It wouldn't pass an ethics committee for a million years. It's bad science and bad medicine.

How many decades away from it being feasible are we?

Hey, I need to ask you a question, since you're almost a doctor.

I was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and I'm a young man...

My mom has a ton of autoimmune and gut crap and we're both depressed and nervous wrecks.

Do you think that if we worked out our mental issues, it would at least slow it down?

Also, could the stress have activated a gene that manufactures the antibody that attacks the thyroid? So calming down might turn it off? I quit coffee since I hear caffeine can thin the lining of the gut and exacerbate leaky gut syndrome and also chill the adrenals since cortisol can interfere with the thyroid hormones.

Is any of that valid? I hope?
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I have never heard of this. Anyone care to offer a brief synopsis?
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he's going ahead with it
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Gamer99z posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

This is such a sad story. The guy would rather die with hope than live with his disability even though there's only like a 0.0001% chance of success. I kind of hope he changes his mind about going through with it and finds a reason to keep living but that seems unlikely.

Isn't the dude expected to die within a couple years anyways because of the condition?
I mean honestly I'd rather them let some doctor(s) Frankenstein me up for science and than gradually getting worse and worse until I just die. I wouldn't bother having any relationships or anything because knowing I'm going to die would just make me feel too selfish for that. I'd basically just be a recluse waiting for death otherwise.

I didn't know about that and now it's even sadder.

At the very least maybe something will be learned in the process. Hopes for this seem pretty slim too though.
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Gamer99z posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

This is such a sad story. The guy would rather die with hope than live with his disability even though there's only like a 0.0001% chance of success. I kind of hope he changes his mind about going through with it and finds a reason to keep living but that seems unlikely.

Isn't the dude expected to die within a couple years anyways because of the condition?
I mean honestly I'd rather them let some doctor(s) Frankenstein me up for science and than gradually getting worse and worse until I just die. I wouldn't bother having any relationships or anything because knowing I'm going to die would just make me feel too selfish for that. I'd basically just be a recluse waiting for death otherwise.

Yeah, the guy doesn't have that much time left so he figures he might as well try.
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Gamer99z posted...

SpiralDrift posted...

This is such a sad story. The guy would rather die with hope than live with his disability even though there's only like a 0.0001% chance of success. I kind of hope he changes his mind about going through with it and finds a reason to keep living but that seems unlikely.

Isn't the dude expected to die within a couple years anyways because of the condition?
I mean honestly I'd rather them let some doctor(s) Frankenstein me up for science and than gradually getting worse and worse until I just die. I wouldn't bother having any relationships or anything because knowing I'm going to die would just make me feel too selfish for that. I'd basically just be a recluse waiting for death otherwise.

There is a difference between attempting something when enough of a breakthrough in regenerative medicine provides even a semblance of working versus performing a "mad scientist" procedure that realistically won't teach us anything we didn't already know.

A transected spinal cord won't magically regain function. Skipping steps won't get us closer to "solving" this.
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dawg000 posted...

I have never heard of this. Anyone care to offer a brief synopsis?

Some Russian dude is dying of a rare and incurable genetic disease and has volunteered for some Italian doctor to try to transplant his head to another body. The doctor has only ever done it on rats and shit and it wasn't very successful but he's wanting to jump right to a human. Supposedly he'll need a staff of 150 doctors doing the procedure over like 36 hours or something crazy like that.
The entire medical community agrees there's only like a 0.0000000000000001% chance of success but supposedly last I heard it was still supposed to be happening this year.
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Verdekal posted...

How many decades away from it being feasible are we?

Honestly, no idea. That's why it is scary. Since it isn't even on the horizon, it just seems cruel and pointless. The amount of knowledge gleaned is minuscule and not worth it.

Verdekal posted...

Hey, I need to ask you a question, since you're almost a doctor.

I was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and I'm a young man...

My mom has a ton of autoimmune and gut crap and we're both depressed and nervous wrecks.

Do you think that if we worked out our mental issues, it would at least slow it down?

Also, could the stress have activated a gene that manufactures the antibody that attacks the thyroid? So calming down might turn it off? I quit coffee since I hear caffeine can thin the lining of the gut and exacerbate leaky gut syndrome and also chill the adrenals since cortisol can interfere with the thyroid hormones.

Is any of that valid? I hope?

Since I'm not a doctor yet, it wouldn't really be appropriate to make recommendations and anything I say should be taken with a huge grain of salt, or rather, treated like I'm a layperson still. These are things you should definitely take up with your doctor.

Layperson to layperson, just talking about the science, I think there is a body of literature finding more associations with gut issues and mental illness, but at this point it's still very early in teasing out the details. So there really isn't a lot one can pull clinically and make recommendations off of. It's sort of a correlation =/= causation thing. So could the stress have contributed? Maybe. Will addressing those improve the Hashimoto's? I couldn't say. I know it's sort of an unsatisfying answer.

As for stress activating a gene directly causing the autoimmune antibodies? Very unlikely, I think. As unsatisfying of an answer as it is, it's really a combination of many factors that honestly requires a PhD's level of expertise studying this very problem to give you that much minutiae.

You seem to know some physiology though. If you ask your doctor, they might be able to print you out an UpToDate article about Hashimoto's if you're curious to know more. UpToDate is like "doctor's wikipedia" :P, really neat summary articles with dozens of references of the primary literature, so it's easier to digest than something like PubMed, but it is still on the technical side. Depends how comfortable you are with physio lingo.
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Verdekai, to follow up on my last post:

Skimming through the article on Hashimoto's thyroiditis, the cause is thought to be multifactorial (combination of genetic factors and environment) (i.e., we don't know)

As a general rule, autoimmunity is thought to arise often from "molecular mimicry". For whatever reason, your body mounts an immune response to something unrelated (like a viral infection). This virus happens to have "antigens" (surface molecules that our immune system recognizes) that are structurally similar to something in your body (in this case, something like the TSH receptor, thyroglobulin, or thyroid peroxidase enzymes).

Since it is "similar enough" your body essentially produces the B cells and T cells that necessarily recognize both the virus and components of the thyroid as "non-self" and attacks it. It has now lost "tolerance" to those surface "antigens" on the thyroid it used to recognize as "self"

To date though, no specific viruses have been identified as being causal, so it's all speculative at this point.
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Gamer99z posted...

dawg000 posted...

I have never heard of this. Anyone care to offer a brief synopsis?

Some Russian dude is dying of a rare and incurable genetic disease and has volunteered for some Italian doctor to try to transplant his head to another body. The doctor has only ever done it on rats and shit and it wasn't very successful but he's wanting to jump right to a human. Supposedly he'll need a staff of 150 doctors doing the procedure over like 36 hours or something crazy like that.
The entire medical community agrees there's only like a 0.0000000000000001% chance of success but supposedly last I heard it was still supposed to be happening this year.

Thanks I appreciate that. Hmm well the only logical reason to try something that drastic would be if his time left is incredibly short. Otherwise, wait it out I'd say. Maybe a cure will pop up at some point? Who knows? Just seems like an absolute last resort when all possible options have been exhausted and you're desperate beyond measure.
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If the guy wants to let him try given his situation. Then let him.
Sure it most likely will fail. But let him give it a try. In the miracle chance it works it'll go down in history. There's a better chance it'll work than there is of the guy surviving otherwise anyway.
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EternalDivide posted...

If the guy wants to let him try given his situation. Then let him.
Sure it most likely will fail. But let him give it a try. In the miracle chance it works it'll go down in history. There's a better chance it'll work than there is of the guy surviving otherwise anyway.

"First, do no harm."

I understand why someone might think about the "miracle chance it works", but it won't. It's the equivalent of trying a heart transplant in Medieval Europe.

It's false hope for a guy who is going to be put through a needlessly brutal operation, which is arguably a worse fate than the natural course of his illness.

It isn't even straightforward to regain function of a cut peripheral nerve, let alone the entire central nervous system...
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Soviet_Poland posted...

It's false hope for a guy who is going to be put through a needlessly brutal operation, which is arguably a worse fate than the natural course of his illness.

He knows the exact risks he is taking. How is that false hope?
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Who cares? He knows the risks. If he wants to do it, let him.

Go_Totodile posted...

Who cares? He knows the risks. If he wants to do it, let him.

HogRiderreturns posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

It's false hope for a guy who is going to be put through a needlessly brutal operation, which is arguably a worse fate than the natural course of his illness.

He knows the exact risks he is taking. How is that false hope?

It honestly boils down to your view on euthanasia, because that's what this is. For all we know, maybe that's his goal here. But to call a functionally 0% chance of success "knowing the risks" is just mincing words here.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

Verdekal posted...

How many decades away from it being feasible are we?

Honestly, no idea. That's why it is scary. Since it isn't even on the horizon, it just seems cruel and pointless. The amount of knowledge gleaned is minuscule and not worth it.

Verdekal posted...

Hey, I need to ask you a question, since you're almost a doctor.

I was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and I'm a young man...
My mom has a ton of autoimmune and gut crap and we're both depressed and nervous wrecks.
Do you think that if we worked out our mental issues, it would at least slow it down?
Also, could the stress have activated a gene that manufactures the antibody that attacks the thyroid? So calming down might turn it off? I quit coffee since I hear caffeine can thin the lining of the gut and exacerbate leaky gut syndrome and also chill the adrenals since cortisol can interfere with the thyroid hormones.
Is any of that valid? I hope?

Since I'm not a doctor yet, it wouldn't really be appropriate to make recommendations and anything I say should be taken with a huge grain of salt, or rather, treated like I'm a layperson still. These are things you should definitely take up with your doctor.

Layperson to layperson, just talking about the science, I think there is a body of literature finding more associations with gut issues and mental illness, but at this point it's still very early in teasing out the details. So there really isn't a lot one can pull clinically and make recommendations off of. It's sort of a correlation =/= causation thing. So could the stress have contributed? Maybe. Will addressing those improve the Hashimoto's? I couldn't say. I know it's sort of an unsatisfying answer.

As for stress activating a gene directly causing the autoimmune antibodies? Very unlikely, I think. As unsatisfying of an answer as it is, it's really a combination of many factors that honestly requires a PhD's level of expertise studying this very problem to give you that much minutiae.

You seem to know some physiology though. If you ask your doctor, they might be able to print you out an UpToDate article about Hashimoto's if you're curious to know more. UpToDate is like "doctor's wikipedia" :P, really neat summary articles with dozens of references of the primary literature, so it's easier to digest than something like PubMed, but it is still on the technical side. Depends how comfortable you are with physio lingo.

Soviet_Poland posted...

Verdekai, to follow up on my last post:

Skimming through the article on Hashimoto's thyroiditis, the cause is thought to be multifactorial (combination of genetic factors and environment) (i.e., we don't know)

As a general rule, autoimmunity is thought to arise often from "molecular mimicry". For whatever reason, your body mounts an immune response to something unrelated (like a viral infection). This virus happens to have "antigens" (surface molecules that our immune system recognizes) that are structurally similar to something in your body (in this case, something like the TSH receptor, thyroglobulin, or thyroid peroxidase enzymes).

Since it is "similar enough" your body essentially produces the B cells and T cells that necessarily recognize both the virus and components of the thyroid as "non-self" and attacks it. It has now lost "tolerance" to those surface "antigens" on the thyroid it used to recognize as "self"

To date though, no specific viruses have been identified as being causal, so it's all speculative at this point.

Good job shutting that troll the hell up.

*starts a slow clap*
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Old NoiseTank posted...

he's going ahead with it

Underrated post
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Its confirmed, he'll be heading into surgery in December
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Awesome I wish him the best.

So who's the body donor? Why am I not hearing about this?

The guy with the disease at least has a slim chance of hope. The donor is literally going through with assisted suicide.
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I thought this was just some crazy Hideo Kojima publicity stunt since the guy is the same doctor from MGS V
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SpiralDrift posted...

This is such a sad story. The guy would rather die with hope than live with his disability even though there's only like a 0.0001% chance of success. I kind of hope he changes his mind about going through with it and finds a reason to keep living but that seems unlikely.

From what I understand that dude is dead either way and volunteered not because he thinks he'll live but because if he dies, he hopes that he can add to medical knowledge of how to make something like a head transplant work in the future.

Generally speaking, though, they're going into this so unprepared it's not even funny. there isn't even a small chance for it to work, it's doomed to fail and they'll learn nothing.
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weapon_d00d816 posted...

So who's the body donor? Why am I not hearing about this?

The guy with the disease at least has a slim chance of hope. The donor is literally going through with assisted suicide.

the donor is braindead / no cerebral activity from what I understand.
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Anyway I hope the surgery is successful, if the guy wants to try and hold on to life this way then it's his decision.
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X-Files
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