Board 8 > Freedom, Liberty, Ron Paul - Return of the #fakerich [dwmf]

(+) Yeah! (+)

SmartMuffin posted...

"left-wing comedians"

who watch better call saul, probably
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In addition, there are economic costs of these policies, says Rozenksi. "It's the costs to jobs, the increased cost to retailers, the increased cost in taxes."

...how does banning plastic bags possibly increase cost to retailers?
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When you force someone to use a product they (and their customers) prefer less, that is a real cost to them, even if you compensate them for the financial difference (which some bag bans do, but others don't)
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Having to buy paper bags, obviously.

Or if they go the no-bag route, there's lost sales. I remember when I visited the beach LA, I went to a convenience store to get some quick drinks and food, and ended up just buying a drink since I didn't have a bag to carry the other stuff in.
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I just like the idea that "you don't have to give this product away for free anymore" can possibly be considered a cost to retailers.
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SmartMuffin posted...

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/28/plastic-bag-bans-are-in-retreat-across-t

didnt know this but am delighted to see it!

Ugh plastic bags are the worst

the worst part is as a customer I have to argue with people to not give me a bag, because corporations are out of touch and force employees to bag/double bag things
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SantaRPidgey posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/28/plastic-bag-bans-are-in-retreat-across-t

didnt know this but am delighted to see it!

Ugh plastic bags are the worst

the worst part is as a customer I have to argue with people to not give me a bag, because corporations are out of touch and force employees to bag/double bag things

Not because they're out of touch. Because old people bitch and moan and make a big fuss when you don't. The loud and obnoxious with disposable income win.
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yeah but fuck old people, thats what I say.

they're on their way out anyway
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I thought you were into pedo not cougars
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Kenri posted...

I just like the idea that "you don't have to give this product away for free anymore" can possibly be considered a cost to retailers.

what are you talking about lmao

plastic bags aren't products
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...Of course they are? They're a thing that was produced and has monetary value. What else would they be?
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They have 0 or less value. They are waste, necessary to the functioning of a store. Like a restaurant's garbage, or a car's CO2. If people could magically get rid of it, everyone would.

It's like arguing that you're providing free CO2 to the world by driving your car around. That no one should complain about high emissions because the pollution is a free product gifted to the world by the generous driver.
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If they had zero or less value no one would buy them, or even accept them for free. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. It's not comparable to garbage/pollution except in the sense that it ultimately becomes those things, but so do most products that start out with some use and value.
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It's like arguing that you're providing free CO2 to the world by driving your car around. That no one should complain about high emissions because the pollution is a free product gifted to the world by the generous driver.

Given that CO2 helps plants grow....
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SmartMuffin posted...

It's like arguing that you're providing free CO2 to the world by driving your car around. That no one should complain about high emissions because the pollution is a free product gifted to the world by the generous driver.

Given that CO2 helps plants grow....

Wow did you go back and get your biology degree?
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Coal dust: It's got what plants crave
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Kenri posted...

If they had zero or less value no one would buy them

Literally no one does buy them. They take them for free and spend money and effort trashing or recycling them. Is this like a local thing? Do people really go and buy plastic bags where you're from?

The point is this: stores and customer NEED bags to carry stuff. A plastic bag, paper, cloth, whatever. They need some sort of bag. If you ban plastic bags, you don't magically solve this need for a bag. They still need bags. So all you're doing is forcing stores and customers to buy more expensive (paper, cloth) bags instead. How could this possibly be seen as reducing costs for anyone?
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foolm0r0n posted...

Literally no one does buy them. They take them for free and spend money and effort trashing or recycling them. Is this like a local thing? Do people really go and buy plastic bags where you're from?

You're talking nonsense. You can go into a store and buy a box of plastic bags, and after you pay for it they'll put it into another plastic bag for you. How is one a product and the other not?

And yes, in California a lot of stores will let you buy a plastic bag for a small charge (5-50 cents depending on its durability). "Would you like to buy any ice or stamps? Would you like to buy a bag?" Of course most people don't do it, because shockingly, it's not actually something most people need -- they can just carry their stuff, or use a cart, or use bags they brought. But most people don't buy the ice or stamps either, unless they really need to.

Anyway, I don't see how you can possibly argue that bags aren't a product and also that people NEED them. You're positing a demand and yet refusing to recognize that the market has created a product that satisfies that demand.
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where i live people do buy plastic bags in grocery stores, actually.

they're only like €0.10 but they're not free.
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Kenri posted...

You can go into a store and buy a box of plastic bags

Okay must be a local thing because I have literally never seen this

Kenri posted...

Anyway, I don't see how you can possibly argue that bags aren't a product and also that people NEED them

They are a product of the plastic bag factory to the store. They are not a product of the store, like ice or stamps. They don't sell plastic bags at the store. The 5-50 cents thing is a TAX on plastic bags. The store is taxed for each plastic bag they give out, and they pass it off onto the customer.

How about this:
Consider a store's monthly spend, which uses plastic bags. It's somehow exactly the same every single month.
Then plastic bags are banned. Does their their monthly spend go up or down and why?
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I mean have you ever shopped at a Save-A-Lot? Literally no plastic bags. They just put all your items in a different cart and say "you figure it out".
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Also ETH is back to 100% reflecting BTC, ugh
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A major grocery chain in Canada called Superstore actually does sell the plastic bags. It's like 5 cents a bag or something. It incentivizes you to buy their reusable options like cloth bags or plastic bins ( which are definitely a product) and makes it so they don't have to absorb the cost of the bags.

For the most part though, plastic bags aren't really a product for the end customer. Sure, they were a product that the grocery store had to buy, but in the grocery store/consumer relationship it's just an incentive to make the shopping experience as convenient as possible for the customer. They are willing to cover the cost of bags to make shopping at the store easy for the customer, so the customer continues to shop there. It's not really a competitive advantage at this point since almost everyone does it, but it does mean that if someone decides NOT to give free bags, people are likely to be annoyed and stop shopping there.

It's kinda like a furniture store offering free delivery - it's a cost they have to absorb, but it makes someone far more likely to buy from them as it makes taking them product home much easier. It can be even simpler though like a store paying for air conditioning just to make the shopping experience more comfortable. It's just a cost the store absorbs to make shopping as easy for the customer as possible.


As for superstore, people complained about it a lot originally but it hasn't really hurt them. They are good for a lot of other reasons so having to pay bags doesn't stop many people. The bags they do supply are much higher quality and tougher too since you pay for them, not like the super thin shit at Walmart or Safeway. I almost always just pay for the bags because I'm too lazy to bring the cloth bags I own and I dont really care.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Okay must be a local thing because I have literally never seen this

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=plastic+bags


foolm0r0n posted...

They are a product of the plastic bag factory to the store. They are not a product of the store, like ice or stamps. They don't sell plastic bags at the store. The 5-50 cents thing is a TAX on plastic bags. The store is taxed for each plastic bag they give out, and they pass it off onto the customer.

It doesn't magically become not a product when resold (or given away for free) by a retailer. It's a product either way.

And call it a tax if you want, I guess -- but cashiers definitely don't ask "Would you like to offset our plastic bag tax today?" It's a tax on the store end, not the consumer's, even if ultimately it's just being passed along.


foolm0r0n posted...

How about this:
Consider a store's monthly spend, which uses plastic bags. It's somehow exactly the same every single month.
Then plastic bags are banned. Does their their monthly spend go up or down and why?

All else the same, it should go down. They'll be spending less on plastic bags, because the cost to the consumer is higher, which drives down demand, so the store needs to stock less of them. (Plus, maybe they're actually making a profit on the ones they sell now, as opposed to an inherent loss when they were giving them out for free? Probably not but in theory it's possible.)

Realistically, not everything does stay the same. They only need a few people not shopping with them at all because of the lack of free bags to offset any benefits. But that's not what I'm arguing.
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All else the same, it should go down. They'll be spending less on plastic bags, because the cost to the consumer is higher, which drives down demand, so the store needs to stock less of them. (Plus, maybe they're actually making a profit on the ones they sell now, as opposed to an inherent loss when they were giving them out for free? Probably not but in theory it's possible.)

So, foolmo highlighted a cost, and then asked what happens when you remove that cost. Sure... this eliminates having to pay for that cost. But the answer doesn't end there; it's pretty shortsighted to view it that way.

Why did the cost exist in the first place? Has the need for that disappeared? No, it hasn't. People still need something to carry their shit home in. The store offered a device to make things easier for the customer. If they don't replace it,shopping is now more difficult. This will result in less sales. So the store needs to come up with something else,like paper bags, which are more expensive and take up more space. This is an increase in cost for the store. Or maybe the consumer has to buy reusable bags or bins now. This is an increase in cost for the customer. Overall, it's just an increase in cost.


If a furniture store was banned from offering free delivery. Would this make this cost go down? Sure , since they can't pay delivery drivers and suplpy trucks to deliver anymore. But then they lose sales. Some customers have trucks or friends with trucks, so they might still come buy. But some just have a tiny car. They can't do anything with what they buy unless they rent a uhaul or something, or if the furniture store figures out some other (probably more expensive) method of filling this gap. It just increases the costs for somebody.

Plastic bags are a smaller scale version of free delivery. It's just a cost of doing business.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Also ETH is back to 100% reflecting BTC, ugh

not a horrible thing considering the flash crash. But yeah, certainly far from ideal. Really disagree with the gdax "bailout" saving all those Marginers, but it helped pump eth back up too. Just seems like they created another (excessively) volatile bubble by doing so.
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Right, and I think I covered that in my next sentence about how realistically costs don't go down. But keep in mind this whole conversation started because I said I found something funny (not that I didn't understand it), and then became about the definition of a product. I really don't know why foolmo brought in the cost analysis as if it's relevant, but I thought I'd answer anyway in case it was leading somewhere.

Also plenty of places don't offer free delivery, and tbh I'd consider delivery, free or not, to be a product (insofar as services are counted as products at all). So same deal there. I GET it, but it's funny to think that costs would go UP if you stop giving something away for free!
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You keep saying you dont understand it so it sure sounds like you don't understand it.
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ClyTheCool posted...

You keep saying you dont understand it so it sure sounds like you don't understand it.

when have i said i don't understand it

other than post #252 where i didn't understand that specific phrasing until it was clarified for me by SmartMuffin in literally the next post
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Kenri posted...

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=plastic+bags

This is the dumbest thing you could've possibly posted. Smuffin tier analogy.

Show me where you can buy Amazon delivery boxes on Amazon. You're literally making my argument for me.
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Kenri posted...

But keep in mind this whole conversation started because I said I found something funny (not that I didn't understand it), and then became about the definition of a product

No, it has always been, and still is, about how you can't understand why banning plastic bags could possibly increase costs to a store. I'm trying a bunch of different angles to try to get you to understand but you can't for some reason.

Like, possibly making profit on plastic bags after they are banned? Did you seriously think about that more than 1 second and still decide to post it?

Kenri posted...

It doesn't magically become not a product when resold (or given away for free) by a retailer.

It's not magic. I'm explaining exactly why something that a store buys can end up not being a sold product to the final customer. It's just when it's waste.

Here's another angle:
You're a store. Each day you put your trash in the back, and the trash truck comes and takes it away. This service costs your $100/month.
Now, trash services are banned. You are no longer allowed to pay the trash truck $100/month to come get your trash.
Do your monthly expenses go up or down?
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http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/28/augmented-reality-games-first-amendment
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foolm0r0n posted...

Kenri posted...

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=plastic+bags

This is the dumbest thing you could've possibly posted. Smuffin tier analogy.

Show me where you can buy Amazon delivery boxes on Amazon. You're literally making my argument for me.

That's sort of a different situation since the box is non-optional 99% of the time and already used before it gets to you, while the bag really isn't. But you can still buy cardboard shipping boxes on Amazon, they just won't say "Amazon" on them.


foolm0r0n posted...

No, it has always been, and still is, about how you can't understand why banning plastic bags could possibly increase costs to a store. I'm trying a bunch of different angles to try to get you to understand but you can't for some reason.

This has literally not been in doubt to me since post #253 so if that's what we're arguing about then we're done here I guess.


foolm0r0n posted...

Like, possibly making profit on plastic bags after they are banned? Did you seriously think about that more than 1 second and still decide to post it?

You're losing it in other areas, obviously, but on that one transaction alone, it's likely you're selling a plastic bag for more than you bought it for. Are you doubting this?


foolm0r0n posted...

It's not magic. I'm explaining exactly why something that a store buys can end up not being a sold product to the final customer. It's just when it's waste.

Here's another angle:
You're a store. Each day you put your trash in the back, and the trash truck comes and takes it away. This service costs your $100/month.
Now, trash services are banned. You are no longer allowed to pay the trash truck $100/month to come get your trash.
Do your monthly expenses go up or down?

This is, uh, not a similar situation at all, but yes, they would immediately go down before then going way up because you'd have to devote manpower to removing your trash, which would be more expensive. Like what are you trying to prove here?
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That's exactly the same situation
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Kenri posted...

This has literally not been in doubt to me since post #253 so if that's what we're arguing about then we're done here I guess.

Nah muffin's answer is too abstract and technical. I'm not satisfied with you just agreeing to that, as long as you still think there's a profit potential with stores selling plastic bags...

Kenri posted...

This is, uh, not a similar situation at all, but yes, they would immediately go down before then going way up because you'd have to devote manpower to removing your trash, which would be more expensive. Like what are you trying to prove here?

Okay cool, I am satisfied with this. I guess the plastic bag thing is just some weird special case for you, even though it is literally just another form of garbage.
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I guess. It's not completely a weird special case, I already agreed that free delivery is similar. But I can't think of many cases where something is generally given away for free until the government forces you to charge for it, yeah.
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What if government banned the little cardboard sandwich boxes McDonald's puts it's burgers in? Would that be different from plastic bags?
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I don't really know about free delivery since that's so complex and requires human labor and everything

But yeah this notion that plastic bags are "being given away for free" is so weird
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ClyTheCool posted...

What if government banned the little cardboard sandwich boxes McDonald's puts it's burgers in? Would that be different from plastic bags?

I'm inclined to say "yes" because those are effectively soiled as soon as they're used (keep in mind the big pro-plastic bag argument of people re-using them), but I dunno. Different in what way?
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When you go to the store the employees labor is being given to you for free.
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Nothing is ever "given away for free." Stuff like packaging is baked into the general operating expense of running a grocery store/restaurant/whatever. Just because you are not charged individually for items does not mean you aren't paying for them.

The fact that you can get a Big Mac without lettuce doesn't mean that people who do get lettuce are getting it "for free." No, the lettuce is part of the cost of the burger.
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I get my Big Mac's with no toppings and no bun. The market price for meat is too low, and this is my cause.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Nothing is ever "given away for free." Stuff like packaging is baked into the general operating expense of running a grocery store/restaurant/whatever. Just because you are not charged individually for items does not mean you aren't paying for them.

The fact that you can get a Big Mac without lettuce doesn't mean that people who do get lettuce are getting it "for free." No, the lettuce is part of the cost of the burger.

I wonder if costs of burgers being decided by what you get on them would be an effective model.

I remember places that refused special orders. What if burgers had a flat rate and everything from buns to lettuce was an upcharge?
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That would be annoying and no one would eat there.
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Have you never ordered a pizza before?
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I think there are a few specialty burger places that do it that way, but I can't imagine it would work for fast food burgers.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Have you never ordered a pizza before?

Have you never noticed that tons of pizza places offer you a huge variety of pre-made choices with fairly consistent pricing?
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Pizza is definitely annoying to order and I hate doing it every time
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SmartMuffin posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Have you never ordered a pizza before?

Have you never noticed that tons of pizza places offer you a huge variety of pre-made choices with fairly consistent pricing?

Never said my burger place couldn't do the same.
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https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/880518609897897984

Ann has been great lately.
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