Current Events > Competitive Smash Bros might actually be good if they turned items on

(+) Yeah! (+)

and didn't ban stages

Seeing people 1v1 no items final destination is just sad. Wobbling around and wildly tossing out attacks hoping to get a hit, no strategy, kinda like Street Fighter 5.

yeah you may as well just play some "proper" fighting game at that point
---

They already do that. It's called For Fun.

Now I don't do fighting games but isn't items the only fun thing about smash bros?
---

Microwaved_Eggs posted...

yeah you may as well just play some "proper" fighting game at that point

The point isn't to turn Smash into a "real" fighting game, it's to turn half the content back on so the game can be played as it was intended.

TheMarthKoopa posted...

Microwaved_Eggs posted...

yeah you may as well just play some "proper" fighting game at that point

The point isn't to turn Smash into a "real" fighting game, it's to turn half the content back on so the game can be played as it was intended.

no my point is i agree

theres no purpose in turning off the games content to have a shitty clone of a proper fighter
---

Microwaved_Eggs posted...

shitty clone of a proper fighter

lmao

it's nothing like a fighting game, they play completely differently.
---

Imagine knowing so little about Smash that they think turning on items is the way to make already by far the most popular fighter "better"
---

legendarylemur posted...

Imagine knowing so little about Smash that they think turning on items is the way to make already by far the most popular fighter "better"

imagine thinking smash is keeping fighting games alive

imagine thinking smash is a fighting game

imagine thinking having to turn off 90% of the game in an attempt to make it somewhat balanced means it should be played competitively
---

marth topic
---

TheMarthKoopa posted...

and didn't ban stages

Seeing people 1v1 no items final destination is just sad. Wobbling around and wildly tossing out attacks hoping to get a hit, no strategy, kinda like Street Fighter 5.

"no strategy"

kek
---

TheMarthKoopa posted...

The point isn't to turn Smash into a "real" fighting game, it's to turn half the content back on so the game can be played as it was intended.

if it was intended to be played with items on and if all the stages were intended to be played then

A: You wouldn't have a significant amount of control over item spawn-rates, including the ability to turn them off.
B: You wouldn't be able to turn stages off of the Random button, implying the developers understand that some people like certain stages and others don't. Casual audiences are less likely to want to play on plain stages, competitive audiences are less likely to play on chaotic stages, etc.

The idea that Smash 4 in particular wasn't intended to be played competitively is a pretty bold assertion, too, considering all but 1 DLC character is mid or high tier and the patches almost universally buffed/nerfed in line with what the competitive playerbase discussed.

Brawl was a game clearly designed to be casual in reaction to Melee's competitive scene but it's evident that Sakurai either mellowed out or Nintendo saw the obvious benefit of extending the game's lifespan by catering to the competitive community
---

Zero_Destroyer posted...

TheMarthKoopa posted...

The point isn't to turn Smash into a "real" fighting game, it's to turn half the content back on so the game can be played as it was intended.

if it was intended to be played with items on and if all the stages were intended to be played then

A: You wouldn't have a significant amount of control over item spawn-rates, including the ability to turn them off.
B: You wouldn't be able to turn stages off of the Random button, implying the developers understand that some people like certain stages and others don't. Casual audiences are less likely to want to play on plain stages, competitive audiences are less likely to play on chaotic stages, etc.

The idea that Smash 4 in particular wasn't intended to be played competitively is a pretty bold assertion, too, considering all but 1 DLC character is mid or high tier and the patches almost universally buffed/nerfed in line with what the competitive playerbase discussed.

Brawl was a game clearly designed to be casual in reaction to Melee's competitive scene but it's evident that Sakurai either mellowed out or Nintendo saw the obvious benefit of extending the game's lifespan by catering to the competitive community

its the latter because nintendo literally sent C&Ds to evo in 2013 for streaming melee lol

daily reminder "competitive" smash was fucking dead until @-Gavirulax- ruined evo
---

Melee had been gaining prior to EVO 2013. It was far from dead and the entrant #s from 2012 to 2013 pre-EVO don't even indicate a downwards trend, either.
---

melee the type of game where 8 dudes practiced in a bathroom at a wafflehouse for 10 years with the same 5 characters to make its "competitive scene" boring and stale as fuck
---

ManSpread posted...

melee the type of game where 8 dudes practiced in a bathroom at a wafflehouse for 10 years with the same 5 characters to make its "competitive scene" boring and stale as fuck

13-14 characters. Level of excitement is subjective, but calling it stale/boring definitely isn't the most prominent opinion as of now.
---

The pro smash players cant handle being able to think on their feet when items are involved so they pushed to ban items entirely. Some items are crazy powerful, but I think being able to react and adapt to what appears on screen would add an extra layer of strategy to the game. Same with levels that aren't set to Omega mode.
---

Chicken posted...

The pro smash players cant handle being able to think on their feet when items are involved so they pushed to ban items entirely. Some items are crazy powerful, but I think being able to react and adapt to what appears on screen would add an extra layer of strategy to the game. Same with levels that aren't set to Omega mode.

imagine if in street fighter you had to disable meter, supers, and v skill/triggers to make the game competitive

thats smash brothers
on the real note most v triggers in SFV are either fucking dumb comeback mechanics or 100% useless

or imagine if in guilty gear faust couldnt throw items on the screen/jack o couldnt play tower defense
---

Chicken posted...

The pro smash players cant handle being able to think on their feet when items are involved so they pushed to ban items entirely. Some items are crazy powerful, but I think being able to react and adapt to what appears on screen would add an extra layer of strategy to the game.

It's a matter of really corrosive RNG. Items can spawn anywhere and pretty much any item at all is incredibly broken with the setups it can lead into. The biggest issue is that items being turned on automatically allows explosive containers to spawn, meaning you can, without having time to react, get blown up at random during a combo or sequence or at least be forced to drop it. You earned something, only for it to be taken away by a random number generator. That's the core reason items are banned in every smash game.

Same with levels that aren't set to Omega mode.

Omega Mode stages aren't legal in Smash 4 due to music copyright. If you mean FD, well, like, there's numerous legal stages and Final Destination isn't even the most common/balanced one.
---

Why would some Smash songs by copyrighted but not Final Destination's themes? Thats weird.
---

this topic is like a bucket of bait
---

>"players can't react to items" option select
>guilty gear has a character designed around spawning random items (including bombs) that can help/hurt both players that isn't tournament banned because people learned2play with said feature

:thinking:
---

Zero_Destroyer posted...

It's a matter of really corrosive RNG. Items can spawn anywhere and pretty much any item at all is incredibly broken with the setups it can lead into. The biggest issue is that items being turned on automatically allows explosive containers to spawn, meaning you can, without having time to react, get blown up at random during a combo or sequence or at least be forced to drop it. You earned something, only for it to be taken away by a random number generator. That's the core reason items are banned in every smash game.

All hogwash.

1. You could disable just explosives instead of all items.
2. Most competitive E-sports have objectives worth fighting over. HotS has various neutral spawns or other level gimmicks, LoL / Dota / etc have jungle creeps that appear at regular intervals. WoW ranked PVP has all kinds of RNG involved related to not just skills but crits and abilities with a flat % chance to activate based on some other event.
3. Brawlhalla is smash where the only items in the game are explosives (and sig weapons) and it's running an ongoing spring esports tournament right fucking now.

Smash players are just not good enough for games like Street Fighter but want to play a fighting game so they try as hard to make Smash look like a fighting game. It's the lipstick on a pig scenario.
---

I like how it throws off "competitive" players if you play on other stages
---

I don't understand the idea that competitive players can't deal with items. They know how to move around the stage, they know how to dodge attacks, they know projectile speeds and arcs. A pro player would still destroy you with items on and on a banned stage. Back in the day, I remember pro players saying they sometimes play casually with items on, it's just in tournaments when money is on the line, turn them off.

As Zero_Destroyer said, the main reason for items off is because of random exploding boxes/capsules that can and will spawn while in the middle of an attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFx0-Zkn54
---

>guilty gear has a character that spawns random items including bombs

:thinking:
---

Itachi157 posted...

Smash Bros is only fun when you have smash balls constantly popping up and items falling everywhere

---

judasmaiden15 posted...

I like how it throws off "competitive" players if you play on other stages

What does this even mean?
---

Itachi157 posted...

Smash Bros is only fun when you have smash balls constantly popping up and items falling everywhere

I mean, if you're shit, then yeah
---

You could disable just explosives instead of all items.

Capsules, crates, and barrels are automatically enables if any items are enabled, and those all have a solid chance of exploding on it/throw.

Most competitive E-sports have objectives worth fighting over. HotS has various neutral spawns or other level gimmicks, LoL / Dota / etc have jungle creeps that appear at regular intervals. WoW ranked PVP has all kinds of RNG involved related to not just skills but crits and abilities with a flat % chance to activate based on some other event.

And CS:GO comp is based in the mindset of everything on a map being pre-set without RNG. Some games accept RNG, some don't. Smash falls into the latter category where preventable. The community prefers a set stage without random elements so the focus can be player to player interaction.

Brawlhalla is smash where the only items in the game are explosives (and sig weapons) and it's running an ongoing spring esports tournament right fucking now.

good for that game, I guess

Smash players are just not good enough for games like Street Fighter but want to play a fighting game so they try as hard to make Smash look like a fighting game. It's the lipstick on a pig scenario.

You're implying that Smash players want to be good at Street Fighter when in reality Smash players found a game they liked and a community was built upon it. Considering the upper echelon of each game being fairly limited despite its popularity, then you can assume it's not so easy to be a top player at any of the games. They're good enough at what they want to be good at - Smash, which is not easy.

ManSpread posted...

>guilty gear has a character that spawns random items including bombs

:thinking:

Character RNG is not the same as stage RNG. The difference is a character has a move/moves that have RNG basis (which is accountable for) while the other is a stage where an exploding box/pill can fall on your head and you can't do anything about it.

Peach's bomb spawns are nothing like this. She pulls the item and must hit an enemy with it. The item will 100% of the time start in her hands, making the "randomness" heavily limited in scale. Comparatively, item spawns enable a capsule/crate/whatever falling anywhere at any point. This effects every character, every stage, and every match, and will happen frequently.

Peach's bomb pull is rare and the reaction to how you handle it is not random and entirely adaptable. This would be the case with items if one spawn in the middle of the stage during a neutral start since players would player around it, but this is not something you can expect since the spawn point is random and could be far away or right on top of you as you're doing a combo. It's comparable to Brawl's tripping, which, as many years adequately document, provided no improvement to the game.



I get hating the community. A chunk of Melee's fanbase is absurdly elitist and/or obnoxious and Smash 4's fanbase is really immature with how they handle metagame adaptation by whining/crying for nerfs a lot (because it's populated with a lot of late teens, probably). But it's silly to see bad arguments and bad equivalencies brought up. The item debate ended a decade ago because nobody wanted a game to be decided due to factors out of their control thus dumbing down the game's skill cap, so they banned items.
---