Current Events > Why aren't the other great apes considered human?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean, what defines a human?

All of the other great apes have a strong degree of self-awareness, are able to plan and coordinate events, posess a theory of mind, use tools, have complex emotions, use sophisticated vocal languages, have complex social structures, and have unique cultures within their own species. Chimps use stone tools and make spears, and have been documented to eat with rival groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUM2anIYf4I

Look at this damn orangutan washing his face. So human like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s0jt8L5V_w

Watch these chimps beg. Their gestures and behaviors are strikingly human-like.



Hairless chimps look like small, muscular men.

Once they develop better ways of killing each other off then they can join us
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Well the fact that they are from different genuses (geni? genera?) is a big part of it.

These similarities don't say they are human, they say humanity is less unique. These are traits of all great apes rather than human traits.
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Different number of chromosomes
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For the same reason that large cats aren't considered dogs.
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they cant produce viable offspring with us, so they're not the same species as us.
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Scientifically, only homo sapiens are humans. Since they're not the same species (and can't interbreed with humans), they're not humans.

Outside of that, while they're intelligent and high functioning, they don't possess human-level consciousness, which is a key differentiator.
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s0nicfan posted...

For the same reason that large cats aren't considered dogs.

Dogs didn't come from cats.

Better comparison would be dogs and wolves.
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weapon_d00d816 posted...

Well the fact that they are from different genuses (geni? genera?) is a big part of it.

These similarities don't say they are human, they say humanity is less unique. These are traits of all great apes rather than human traits.

Those are merely just labels. There are no "genuses" in nature, just a variety of different genetic traits thanks to branches in evolution.

itachi15243 posted...

Different number of chromosomes

Why is that the determining factor on what makes a species unique? It's not like a human popped out of thin air one day and was like "Yup, I've got different chromosomes!" It's a slow evolution over time. Even if our genetics are different, they're still quite similar, and the traits we thought were uniquely human are possessed by the other great apes.

I mean, not even me and you have the same genes, yet we're the same species, supposedly. That's what evolution is, it produces a different result with every offspring.

The Admiral posted...

Scientifically, only homo sapiens are humans. Since they're not the same species (and can't interbreed with humans), they're not humans.

Outside of that, while they're intelligent and high functioning, they don't possess human-level consciousness, which is a key differentiator.

The entire Homo genus is often referred to as human in scientific context, so Neanderthals, Homo erectus, etc.
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weapon_d00d816 posted...

The Admiral posted...

Scientifically, only homo sapiens are humans. Since they're not the same species (and can't interbreed with humans), they're not humans.

Outside of that, while they're intelligent and high functioning, they don't possess human-level consciousness, which is a key differentiator.

The entire Homo genus is often referred to as human in scientific context, so Neanderthals, Homo erectus, etc.

True, but none of those are still around, so homo sapiens are the only species at this point that are human.
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itachi15243 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

For the same reason that large cats aren't considered dogs.

Dogs didn't come from cats.

Better comparison would be dogs and wolves.

Humans didn't come from modern day great apes either.
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Cause they aren't human.
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monkmith posted...

they cant produce viable offspring with us, so they're not the same species as us.

Lions and tigers are considered separate species, yet can produce offspring together.

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Let me know when another ape species, or any other animal, figures out metallurgy.
Of course, once bears figure it out, we are well and truly fucked.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Let me know when another ape species figures out metallurgy.
Of course, once bears figure it out, we are well and truly fucked.

That's basically the Brutes in Halo.
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DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

I feel like I'm making one too many technical corrections in this topic but humans are indeed apes. We are great apes, as are they.
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Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

Humans are classified as great apes.

Your other points I have already refuted. So they aren't physically capable of doing things humans can do. So what? Someone from a village in Taiwan isn't going to be dunking basketballs anytime soon, does it really matter?

Because a gorilla is a gorilla. If he learned how to speak and teach math, he'd be a sentient gorilla. That would make him a person, but never a human. Same goes for any other animal that may develop sentience.
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The other great apes aren't human in the same way that humans aren't gorillas or chimps aren't orangutans.
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hockeybub89 posted...

Because a gorilla is a gorilla. If he learned how to speak and teach math, he'd be a sentient gorilla. That would make him a person, but never a human. Same goes for any other animal that may develop sentience.

Fair point, I guess I meant to say "Aren't considered people"

gotta be descended from the first humans; homo erectus, make and use simple tools, make fire

Haldol posted...

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

I'm not sure this has ever been conclusively proven, it's generally illegal to study.
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hockeybub89 posted...

Because a gorilla is a gorilla. If he learned how to speak and teach math, he'd be a sentient gorilla. That would make him a person, but never a human. Same goes for any other animal that may develop sentience.

Yeah, I feel like TC should have said "people" not "human".
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DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Lions and tigers are considered separate species, yet can produce offspring together.

Right, but male ligers and tigons are sterile. No more than a single generation between a lion and a tiger can be produced. Or rather, ligers cannot intrabreed, and neither can tigons.
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Blighboy posted...

Haldol posted...

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

I'm not sure this has ever been conclusively proven, it's generally illegal to study.

Hmm... I'm curious.

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

monkmith posted...

they cant produce viable offspring with us, so they're not the same species as us.

Lions and tigers are considered separate species, yet can produce offspring together.

offspring that are often sterile, but that doesn't change the fact that viable offspring are a requirement to include two different animals in the same species.
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weapon_d00d816 posted...

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

I feel like I'm making one too many technical corrections in this topic but humans are indeed apes. We are great apes, as are they.

Really?? That's interesting. I never knew that.

Although I'm sure that fact wouldn't sit well with many people. Mainly the religious crowd

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

Humans are classified as great apes.

Your other points I have already refuted. So they aren't physically capable of doing things humans can do. So what? Someone from a village in Taiwan isn't going to be dunking basketballs anytime soon, does it really matter?

Dunking basketballs isn't the only defining human characteristic

But the desire/ability to do so for entertainment. As well as developing an entire structured game with rules and regulations that can be taught others( i.e. it is not instinctial) IS one of the things humans do that other apes don't

Unless they have documented gorilla games that I don't know about

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

Humans are classified as great apes.

Your other points I have already refuted. So they aren't physically capable of doing things humans can do. So what? Someone from a village in Taiwan isn't going to be dunking basketballs anytime soon, does it really matter?

Dunking basketballs isn't the only defining human characteristic

But the desire/ability to do so for entertainment. As well as developing an entire structured game with rules and regulations that can be taught others( i.e. it is not instinctial) IS one of the things humans do that other apes don't

Unless they have documented gorilla games that I don't know about

Apes do play games, it's not exactly complex, but it's there. Just like with other human traits.

But it's not like an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon is coming up with anything complicated for recreational activities. We also have mentally impaired people who can't learn like most others do, or people who can't reproduce. These people are still considered human.

But I've conceded "human" was a poor choice of words. "Person" is more appropriate.

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Haldol posted...

DoctorPiranha3 posted...

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

Please tell me what exactly defines a human, then. What is the exact point in our history where you could say "that individual is a human" and "that individual is not".

Lots of things

Reproduction- humans cannot produce offspring with Apes

Behaviors- granted many will be similar to Apes, there are many things we do that they don't. Apes do not have a larynx adapted for talking. They also do not have the same mental capabilities as humans. Granted they can use simple tools and wash their faces l, but then again so can dogs.

Genetic- our DNA is different enough to make us different species. We also look different and have limbs adopted to walking upright ad opposed to climbing. We are mostly hairless, and Apes are not.

We are all primates, but humans are not apes

Humans are classified as great apes.

Your other points I have already refuted. So they aren't physically capable of doing things humans can do. So what? Someone from a village in Taiwan isn't going to be dunking basketballs anytime soon, does it really matter?

Dunking basketballs isn't the only defining human characteristic

But the desire/ability to do so for entertainment. As well as developing an entire structured game with rules and regulations that can be taught others( i.e. it is not instinctial) IS one of the things humans do that other apes don't

Unless they have documented gorilla games that I don't know about

Apes do play games, it's not exactly complex, but it's there. Just like with other human traits.

But it's not like an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon is coming up with anything complicated for recreational activities. We also have mentally impaired people who can't learn like most others do, or people who can't reproduce. These people are still considered human.

But I've conceded "human" was a poor choice of words. "Person" is more appropriate.

Dogs and cats play games too. But they are not structured like human games.

All humans are capable of doing this, whether or not they choose to do so. Remote tribes I'm sure have games and rules of their own.

For the case of the mentally impaired, just because they learn differently doesn't make them incapable of learning. Not to mention they have other trsits that make them human that Apes don't.

I mean like, severe mental impairment. They're still human.

And well yes, humans create rules, because we do have a unique ability of working together for a common goal. That's the defining point of humanity, how we've developed language, and how we've been able to even create civilization and governments. Apes don't have that, but they do possess almost everything else we're capable of. Their cognitive abilities aren't that far below us.

Yes. They are still human. They come from other humans, even if they are impaired.

But I'd wager that while apes are very smart, they are nowhere close to humans.

They are not or higher thoigh processes such as mathematics, multiple languages, creating advanced tools, or studying themselves and other species as well as the entire world around them

Gojak_v3 posted...

Cause they aren't human.

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We did not evolve from them
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Gunpo posted...

We did not evolve from them

I never implied we did... We have branched off like they have, but most of our core instinctual emotions, gestures, and intelligence are present with the other great apes, which implies that our common ancestor also had these traits. The difference in our intelligence, as Charles Darwin put it, is a matter of degree, not kind.

Lions and tigers are probably genetically closer to each other than we are with other apes. But they are also very close to not being able to interbreed. Seems much of the panthera family can interbreed, lion, tiger, jaguar, leopard, to some degree. I did not know that

The simplest answer is because, based on our current understanding, they are different enough to be categorized into a different genus.
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s0nicfan posted...

For the same reason that large cats aren't considered dogs.

Bear to dog would be a better analogy.
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what you talkin about?

Danky Kang is clearly human
he wears business attire
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ClockworkHare posted...

what you talkin about?

Danky Kang is clearly human
he wears business attire

Lol

weapon_d00d816 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Let me know when another ape species figures out metallurgy.
Of course, once bears figure it out, we are well and truly fucked.

That's basically the Brutes in Halo.

You mean Panserbjorn.
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This is one of the dumbest topics I've ever seen and everyone's just acting like it's totally normal wtf.
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