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Board 8 > What if Judge Napolitano was awesome? (Official Ron Paul 2012 topic)

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MoogleKupo141
02/19/12 12:29:00 PM
#51:


It is literally impossible to get everyone awesome healthcare

other countries manage it pretty well.

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foolm0ron
02/19/12 12:30:00 PM
#52:


From: LordoftheMorons | #050
An individual can't afford to pay for every single person's medical treatment.


How many individuals does it take?

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red sox 777
02/19/12 12:31:00 PM
#53:


See, the problem with leftists is that they are really fundamentalists. They believe there is a level that is "good enough." We need to get everyone to the "good enough" level and then we can stop there or proceed beyond there at our pleasure. Just do the fundamentals right.

The world is not like that- with resource allocation there is always a sliding scale. It is always a problem of degree. There is no level of good enough for healthcare, because technology advances. A penniless illegal immigrant today can probably get better medical care than John D Rockefeller ever could. If we had frozen the "good enough" level of healthcare at as high a level as Rockefeller's back in the 1890s (at exorbitant cost to society!), people would still be worse off today. And they might not even know it, because they think they've achieved their fundamentals.

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red sox 777
02/19/12 12:34:00 PM
#54:


other countries manage it pretty well.

They don't. Where do the world's super rich go for medical treatment? The United States. Where they pay for super expensive procedures out of pocket. It is literally impossible for us to give this kind of treatment to everyone at this time.

But 20 years down the line, these procedures will be readily available to the commoner. And there will be a new set of ultra expensive medical procedures only available to the super rich.

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 12:36:00 PM
#55:


From: foolm0ron | #048
Yeah, I get you, I do that as well.

You must also greatly dislike it when many posts are wasted talking about something pointless like paying for birth control vs. paying for unwanted pregnancies.


Fair enough.

From: SmartMuffin | #049
That would take time, and in that time the damage would already have been done

Not really. There are plenty of ways to send money very quickly. The point is, you see a sick person and you feel bad. But not bad enough to actually help them yourself. Just bad enough to want to the government point a gun at your rich neighbor and make them help the sick person.


Well there are a number of issues with this. First of all, it would still take time for me to get their information so I can send the money (information they might not want to publicly reveal), send the money and have the transfer actually go through (I'm pretty sure nearly all transactions have a delay), then they'd have to take the money and then go get a checkup. As opposed to just walking into the clinic, taking a number, and being done with it. Secondly, I have no way of confirming a person is actually injured/sick/what have you. So I'd be acting on faith, something I have an unfortunate shortage of. And thirdly, the cost of such an action on one person is massively greater than it is when taken over the entire population of a country. Think of it as a subscription fee for living in the country. Remember, you can always leave, just as you can always boycott a company, right?

Though that last bit is perhaps something I should have left out, I really think it's far more efficient to have everyone chip in so their country functions is superior to simply going "Hey, can someone do this for us?". And it has been shown many a time, the more people witness a problem, the less likely it is that anyone does something about it.

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Mr Lasastryke
02/19/12 12:38:00 PM
#56:


They believe there is a level that is "good enough." We need to get everyone to the "good enough" level and then we can stop there or proceed beyond there at our pleasure. Just do the fundamentals right.

Even if healthcare could only improve if it's not socialized, I'd rather have adequate healthcare that's available to everyone than perfect healthcare that only the rich can afford.
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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 12:40:00 PM
#57:


At Red Sox, I really don't have an answer for your points. I don't have any issue with the rich being able to get better treatment if they pay for it, I just don't want people who can't pay to suffer and die. I personally know a number of people who would not be alive right now if they lived in the states, and that's just not something I want to face.

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red sox 777
02/19/12 12:41:00 PM
#58:


One thing that isn't addressed enough is the distortionary effect government-mandated medicine has on its price. If everyone in society is forced to chip in to buy healthcare, what would you do as a healthcare provider? Raise your prices of course! Your customers cannot refuse. The government forces them to buy your product. It's even better than a monopoly.

This doesn't happen with charitable donations. People can look at the cost and decide that it is too expensive for them to donate that much money for that procedure.

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 12:44:00 PM
#59:


That hasn't happened up here, so...

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foolm0ron
02/19/12 12:46:00 PM
#60:


From: Mr Lasastryke | #056
I'd rather have adequate healthcare that's available to everyone than perfect healthcare that only the rich can afford.


Even if there was adequate healthcare available to everyone as well as perfect healthcare for the rich?

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red sox 777
02/19/12 12:46:00 PM
#61:


Even if healthcare could only improve if it's not socialized, I'd rather have adequate healthcare that's available to everyone than perfect healthcare that only the rich can afford.

But would you be okay with 1950s level healthcare? Would your grandchildren be okay with today's level of healthcare?

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 12:51:00 PM
#62:


I really don't get the argument you're making here red sox. When has that happened? Seriously?

Hell, when I went on a tour of UBC, they were using a particle accelerator specifically so as to devise new medical treatments. Canada has socialized healthcare, and it's still advancing.

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Mr Lasastryke
02/19/12 12:52:00 PM
#63:


Even if there was adequate healthcare available to everyone as well as perfect healthcare for the rich?

If some people can't afford healthcare, obviously adequate healthcare isn't available for everyone.

But would you be okay with 1950s level healthcare? Would your grandchildren be okay with today's level of healthcare?

By this logic healthcare, socialized or otherwise, is never of an "acceptable" level. It will always be better after a hundred years, because, like you said, technology advances.
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red sox 777
02/19/12 12:53:00 PM
#64:


That hasn't happened up here, so...

I'm assuming you're in Canada. The system there is actually fully run by the government, so there's no profit motive for them to increase prices. I fear that we're about to get a worst of both worlds system in the US where the government forces you to buy healthcare from private companies.

A system fully run by the government (actual socialized medicine) still has the problem of not producing as much innovation in medical treatments, though, which becomes a problem down the line. There is a bit of a free rider issue here though- if one big country in the world is producing advances in medical technology, other countries can copy the technology. In that sense the socialized medicine systems of Canada and Europe have been freeloading off the US for a while now.

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edwardsdv
02/19/12 12:54:00 PM
#65:


From: SmartMuffin | #028
I wouldn't just limit it to women-- men use contraception too you know!

I do indeed!

But for some reason, nobody seems up in arms about employers not providing free condoms to their male employees. For some reason, that's not considered a "men's health" issue.

Yes, I can. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

*sigh* We've had this argument before. To say that ANY slippery slope argument is automatically wrong is to say that every single event is entirely independent of every other event. That nothing ever leads to anything else.


Yeah the only time we hear about condoms being an issue is on college and high school campuses! (presumably because for most adults with a job condoms are pretty easy/cheap to obtain in comparison to the pill)

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red sox 777
02/19/12 12:59:00 PM
#66:


By this logic healthcare, socialized or otherwise, is never of an "acceptable" level. It will always be better after a hundred years, because, like you said, technology advances.

Right, that's why there is no acceptable level, and it's a bad idea to base your policy on raising everyone to a minimum acceptable level.

I really don't get the argument you're making here red sox. When has that happened? Seriously?

Hell, when I went on a tour of UBC, they were using a particle accelerator specifically so as to devise new medical treatments. Canada has socialized healthcare, and it's still advancing.

If you look at the advancement of the past few decades, a disproportionate amount of them have come from the US. Because there is a greater mechanism for rich people to pay colossal amounts of money for the latest breakthroughs here. Same with Nobel Prizes, actually- far higher tuition and far more Nobel Prizes in the US over the past few decades.

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 1:03:00 PM
#67:


You also have ten times our population. But saying we'd still be back in the 50s medically speaking is clear hyperbole.

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redrocket
02/19/12 1:04:00 PM
#68:


Right, that's why there is no acceptable level, and it's a bad idea to base your policy on raising everyone to a minimum acceptable level.

Um, who says you can't raise the minimum acceptable level as technology advances?

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Mr Lasastryke
02/19/12 1:10:00 PM
#69:


Right, that's why there is no acceptable level, and it's a bad idea to base your policy on raising everyone to a minimum acceptable level.

That's like saying nobody should be using Windows 7 right now, because it's an abysmal operating system compared to Windows 45, which will be released in 2100. Saying "we should let people with diseases who can't afford healthcare die because the healthcare we can give them is abysmal compared to 2100's standards" is rather weird logic.
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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 1:11:00 PM
#70:


Think of it as a subscription fee for living in the country. Remember, you can always leave, just as you can always boycott a company, right?

Been through this a million times before, too. You can't "just leave." The United States taxes citizens even if they aren't currently living in the United States. Renouncing your citizenship is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the waiting list in some jurisdictions is over a year long. Furthermore, they tax you at about 30% of whatever assets you attempt to take out of the country.

You were born into debt slavery. They aren't gonna just let you walk away from that easily, you know?

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 1:11:00 PM
#71:


Um, who says you can't raise the minimum acceptable level as technology advances?

Without a profit motive, technology won't advance.

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foolm0ron
02/19/12 1:13:00 PM
#72:


From: redrocket | #068
Um, who says you can't raise the minimum acceptable level as technology advances?


How do you determine this minimum acceptable level?

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 1:17:00 PM
#73:


From: SmartMuffin | #070
Think of it as a subscription fee for living in the country. Remember, you can always leave, just as you can always boycott a company, right?

Been through this a million times before, too. You can't "just leave." The United States taxes citizens even if they aren't currently living in the United States. Renouncing your citizenship is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the waiting list in some jurisdictions is over a year long. Furthermore, they tax you at about 30% of whatever assets you attempt to take out of the country.

You were born into debt slavery. They aren't gonna just let you walk away from that easily, you know?


Well... I don't think Canada works like that, so yeah. I really don't like a great deal of the policies in the states >_>.

I know I have a dual citizenship with New Zealand, and if I just up and left here and settled there Canada wouldn't tax me anymore (though I'd pay taxes for the portion of the year I was in Canada).

And healthcare technology is still advancing in Canada so obviously things still work to a pretty reasonable degree >_>

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 1:19:00 PM
#74:


I know I have a dual citizenship with New Zealand, and if I just up and left here and settled there Canada wouldn't tax me anymore

I believe the US is the only country in the world that taxes you on income you earn in another country.

And healthcare technology is still advancing in Canada so obviously things still work to a pretty reasonable degree >_>

Because they know they can earn a profit selling their drugs in other countries, such as the US. The more countries that switch over to socialized medicine, the less profit-motive there is globally, and the less R&D will occur. As usual, the free world is subsidizing the increasing living standards of the totalitarian world.

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 1:24:00 PM
#75:


I believe the US is the only country in the world that taxes you on income you earn in another country.

...Ouch.

Because they know they can earn a profit selling their drugs in other countries, such as the US. The more countries that switch over to socialized medicine, the less profit-motive there is globally, and the less R&D will occur. As usual, the free world is subsidizing the increasing living standards of the totalitarian world.

Well in the case I experienced it wasn't drugs it was radioactive isotopes, and they only shipped them to the hospital in Vancouver, so not in that case. But really, researchers are indeed getting money from places other than people paying for things they produce. Progress isn't 100% dependent on profits you know. In fact, a very large deal of the advancement of science wasn't exactly stuff the people who thought of it profited off of.

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LordoftheMorons
02/19/12 1:29:00 PM
#76:


SmartMuffin posted...
Without a profit motive, technology won't advance.

So in your world money is the only motivation to do science? Why aren't all of the physics PhDs doing quantitative finance then? It's much more lucrative, and most of them are smart enough to do it.

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 1:38:00 PM
#77:


So in your world money is the only motivation to do science? Why aren't all of the physics PhDs doing quantitative finance then? It's much more lucrative, and most of them are smart enough to do it.

Money isn't the only motivation to do science, but it is the main motivation to fund it. I'm sure SOME medical research would still be funded for charitable purposes, but you cannot deny that if overnight, the possibility of profiting from medical research were to disappear, a lot less medical research would be done.

Well in the case I experienced it wasn't drugs it was radioactive isotopes

And who invented that treatment? And who paid the salaries of the scientists who invented it? And why did they pay those salaries?

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LordoftheMorons
02/19/12 1:44:00 PM
#78:


The government funds more science than anyone else; they're not going to stop, I should hope. Anyway, there will still be profit to be made off medicine whether individuals, taxpayers, or insurance companies are footing the bill. I'm not suggesting we mandate that all drugs are cheap enough that the drug companies wouldn't be able to defray R&D costs; I'm suggesting that if someone needs those drugs to survive and can't afford them themselves, the taxpayers should step in.

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 1:45:00 PM
#79:


UBC, UBC, and considering that particle accelerator is a pretty colossal money sink, direct profit is obviously not it. Indirect profit through fame perhaps, but regardless it isn't making a direct profit at all.

And that's just the thing, I'm arguing that advancement in medical technology still occurs without a direct "we invent it you buy it" profit to be had. Saying socialized healthcare will utterly stifle advancement is foolish because it is demonstrably not happening.

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OmarsComin
02/19/12 1:46:00 PM
#80:


Without a profit motive, technology won't advance.

is this an appropriate time to mention 1960s NASA
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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 1:50:00 PM
#81:


The government funds more science than anyone else; they're not going to stop, I should hope.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 1:51:00 PM
#82:


is this an appropriate time to mention 1960s NASA

that was mostly a military/fearmongering motive

the only reason we went to the moon is because we were afraid the russians were going to weaponize it somehow

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JeffreyRaze
02/19/12 1:53:00 PM
#83:


Once again, the states has problems, we know this. But you can't make these grand sweeping statements about how a country SHOULD be, and then ignore examples of other countries running contrary to your statement. Canada's debt as a percentage of it's GDP is going down last I checked as well.

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LordoftheMorons
02/19/12 1:54:00 PM
#84:


SmartMuffin posted...
The government funds more science than anyone else; they're not going to stop, I should hope.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Well research is what drives economic growth, so it's probably one of the worst things to cut.

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OmarsComin
02/19/12 1:57:00 PM
#85:


I'm all for being afraid of Russia if it gets us velcro
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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 2:05:00 PM
#86:


Canada's debt as a percentage of it's GDP is going down last I checked as well.

Canada isn't nearly as wasteful with their spending as we are. I'm opposed to socialized medicine on philosophical grounds, but it's a hell of a lot better than the crap we're wasting OUR money on.

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metroid composite
02/19/12 3:06:00 PM
#87:


UltimaterializerX posted...
From: Pacmantis | #010
smartmuffin and women get along like smartmuffin and women
You do know he's 100% right, right? Why should I have to pay for some girl acting like a whore?

You're acting like you don't get anything out of this.

Unless you're going to claim that you have no use for condoms?

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foolm0ron
02/19/12 4:22:00 PM
#88:


From: metroid composite | #087
Unless you're going to claim that you have no use for condoms?


It's ulti
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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 4:51:00 PM
#89:


I've never heard of some male politician claiming that people are waging a war on men's health by not requiring employers to hand out free condoms.

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GaryOak151
02/19/12 5:41:00 PM
#90:


smuffin are ou ignoring medical use of birth control

or just saying that isn't important

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 6:16:00 PM
#91:


From: GaryOak151 | #090
smuffin are ou ignoring medical use of birth control

or just saying that isn't important


A little of both. For those that legitimately need birth control pills for a medical issue, they should be treated as any other medicine would be. But at that point, they really aren't birth control pills anymore, they're medicine for whatever condition that happens to have the side-effect of preventing pregnancy.

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Seginustemple
02/19/12 7:21:00 PM
#92:


Money isn't the only motivation to do science, but it is the main motivation to fund it.

Results are the main motivation to do science, money is simply the means. I don't see how anyone can disagree with science being a taxpayer burden - I hope you weren't suggesting that scientific findings and data ought to be owned entirely by companies whose main motivation actually is money.

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 7:22:00 PM
#93:


I don't see how anyone can disagree with science being a taxpayer burden

We're broke.

I hope you weren't suggesting that scientific findings and data ought to be owned entirely by companies whose main motivation actually is money

Uh, patents and trademarks are mentioned in the constitution for this EXACT reason...

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red sox 777
02/19/12 7:32:00 PM
#94:


I'd also say that birth control is something that it makes more sense to pay for out of pocket than through insurance. It's a small cost, where you have a pretty good idea of how much you need. Exactly the kind of cost where insurance doesn't provide a benefit.

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red sox 777
02/19/12 7:34:00 PM
#95:


Also, the biggest difference between the Canadian budget and ours is probably that Canada is not providing more funding to its military than the rest of the top 20 nations in the world combined.

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 7:35:00 PM
#96:


From: red sox 777 | #095
Also, the biggest difference between the Canadian budget and ours is probably that Canada is not providing more funding to its military than the rest of the top 20 nations in the world combined.


Yeah, our global empire is definitely a gigantic money sink. But I mean, it's not like Canada ISN'T over in the Afghan quagmire with us...

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red sox 777
02/19/12 7:38:00 PM
#97:


Even accounting for the population and economic size of the country, the other nations supporting the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were providing more nominal than anything else support, except maybe the UK. Or at least they were on the money cost side of things. For comparison, the US economy is about as large as the next 3 countries combined (China + Japan + Germany), whereas the military spending is as large as the next 20 countries combined.

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SmartMuffin
02/19/12 7:50:00 PM
#98:




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metroid composite
02/19/12 9:56:00 PM
#99:


foolm0ron posted...
From: metroid composite | #087
Unless you're going to claim that you have no use for condoms?
It's ulti

Doesn't ulti have like...rather a lot of sex? (And last I checked, did not want children?) I certainly remember playing Starcraft with him, and between games he'd have a quickie in the laundry room. It was pretty hilarious, actually.

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OmarsComin
02/19/12 11:02:00 PM
#100:


Also, the biggest difference between the Canadian budget and ours is probably that Canada is not providing more funding to its military than the rest of the top 20 nations in the world combined.

yeah. It's kind of funny how people are like "we gotta cut this budget down so we don't saddle our children with debt" and then like literally cannot fathom cutting our military budget. cut it to 1/6 of it's current size and we will still be the number one military spending country in the world.
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