Board 8 > So I beat Undertale, True Pacifistic ending *SPOILERS*

(+) Yeah! (+)

this was my first playthrough, no I have not done any other endings, so lets just talk about this route. Also yes I know I'm really late here, I was told it was weird there was someone this late playing it multiple times

...but yea, games great Lol

as I described in my stream, this game feels like an adult swim short, one of those that aired at 3am and is 15 minutes long, those shows make no sense and are just a bunch of weird shit happening.

BUT Undertale had the talent to only DIP into that insanity and still be coherent. Sometimes.

It goes beyond a parody of RPGs, its a celebration of RPGs, It takes every RPG trope and convention and twists it, almost every single time. Expectations are always broken. Long side quests go no where but it always feel humorous like "Damn I fell for that" instead of being pissed off like in a normal RPG

I seriously could no believe this game at times

but every so often, it revealed it had the chops to tell characters and story. It was very apparent very early on. Toriel was the first step, she just seemed like the friendly tutorial person that helps you out and you start your adventure from there. (Flowey was technically the first one but they were pushed away really fast though)

I even had the feeling at the time what she was doing was really off, she just kept saying this was your new home out of no where and was trying to take care of you almost FORCEFULLY, I was questioning it immediately but I'll admit, I was just being a smartass, but then the game gave you the option to ACTUALLY question it and once she broke down, it turns out she was indeed trying to hide something

so this is where she betrays you right? NO! The game actually MAINTAINS she was genuine, but she gave her many layers and it turns out you are definitely not the first human down here, so she was trying to protect you. She even started calling herself pathetic, the mother figure is "human" (not literally) and had her own feelings of doubt and failure just like anyone else, and it was almost sinister to see her want to destroy the door and FORCE you to stay, but all of her actions were done for your own good, as I said, she MAINTAINED her motherliness.

and that was just TO START. This KEPT happening and I was stunned everytime.

I can keep going on, but yea, this game...was just in another level.

Toby Fox? I don't want to say hes a mad genius, but at my most cynical many years ago, I even thought "Damn I wish I made a Earthbound clone and made millions of dollars and had my character in smash"

Nah

nah

there is no way in a million years I could've done this
and good ol TF was just a music writer with no knowhow about game development? I have an appreciation for this person. I cannot believe someone was able to look at GAMING from so far above to sculpt this game with so much care and attention and affection for the medium.

I won't get too into it but I did like Earthbound but it was always missing something to me, it wasn't fun to play IMO, and the game had ALOT of frustrating things to it, I dont think its as perfect as people make it out to be

I am not saying Undertale is perfection either, but I feel like this is was EB was trying to do, its not a fair comparison, this game came out like 15 years after EB, I know, but still, this game's charm is unmatched

I compared the gameplay to punch out, PO is a boxing game but its a puzzle game at heart, I said this was the PO of RPGs, trying to figure out how to talk down monsters for pacifism was tricky at times

This game made you double guess EVERYTHING, I AM a person who overthinks things and I was QUADRUPLE guessing things

nothing is consistent, maybe some people will find this annoying but it fit the game.

Now the ending
What the FUCK

I DID manage to figure out that Flowey was Asriel really early on, but the game SCREWING with you and shattering the fourth wall was WTF

There was a double subversion here
you name the file, you can name it after yourself like most people and you assume its your character

Turns out its actually one of the humans before you, the first one I think.
(The character you use is Frisk)
"oh okay, so its a different character thats neat"
But then you find out it was THIS character that was doing all of the evil within Flowey/Asriel

then it comes full circle when you beat the game

Flowey says you should leave them all in their happiness, if you start a new file, you will ruin everything. You will be exactly like Flowey wanted to be. Then...he calls you by your name that you put down

YOU were the human afterall. It will come to pass and evil will truly conquer because you want to replay it. FUCK you Toby Fox LOL

its even more sad because I will attempt the Genocide run next.
Good GOD. I AM evil

and even quotes he said came to mind, when you were fighting him he was saying "I will kill you over and over and over 1,000,000 times"

Its exaggerated, but he was TRULY talking like a player of a game who replays stuff.

oh my GOD bro

This game, I don't even know man.

And heres the thing, I"M NOT DONE YET, like I said, I still have to do the genocide one. Now we can see OTHER SIDES of these characters that we were not exposed to. its exciting because WE ARE NOT DONE WITH THEIR DEVELOPMENT, there is MORE to these monsters.

They were ALREADY layered and deep enough, but good god man, I cant...I DON"T KNOW MAN

I will say the only thing I REALLY did not like was fighting the king

You had to go against your ideals and FINALLY fight against someone (in the pacifist run)

This game always provided another way

but this time you had to do it and fight back. I just...simply did not like this. It was teaching the lesson it was worth holding your ideals but being a pacifist doesn't mean you can cherry pick times when its "okay" to go into violence, you have to KEEP doing it

so for the game to unironically make you do it was just kind of weak IMO.
I was overthinking this like CRAZY at the time because I hit a wall and didn't know what to do.
"no no the game is tricking me into THINKING I have to fight, but I have to be a pacifist"

no...you had to fight

yes you could show mercy AFTER, but there was no way of knowing this at the time. I thought fighting him was for keeps

YES the game DOES say Its time to fight at a certain point but again, I thought it was a trick to get me out of the ending

and the game trying to trick you is seriously not out of the ordinary here

but anyways

I actually am interested to see what naysayers think of this game

I am NOT saying this game is perfect and everyone should play it, I can see people being annoyed with it because it CAN be dumb and goofy

but if you have any love of RPGs (maybe even gaming)
and you go into it with an open mind, I think there is appreciation to be had

but I can't help but feel like most people that don't like it probably don't play RPGs or went in not wanting to like it because its popular or something. so if theres people that don't fall into these categories, I would like to hear why it wasn't their cup of tea

also Plug:
the VODs of this are still up in my twitch if you want to see that
*cough*

good game. you should also try oneshot

i do think it is perfect

I will never do the genocide route. the game did its job and is maybe the most successful anti-war/pacifist text in the West, including films, books, etc.

I agree that the Asgore fight was bad. I must have died on him about 20 times before looking up the solution. Very unsatisfying.

NFUN posted...

good game. you should also try oneshot

someone also recommended "Amori" or something like that

we'll see whats up with those

colliding posted...

i do think it is perfect

I will never do the genocide route. the game did its job and is maybe the most successful anti-war/pacifist text in the West, including films, books, etc.

its just

I want to see more of the world and more of the characters, if theres more I want to see it

and diving into their characters even deeper is enticing

but yea, I feel awful I'm being evil like Flowey foretold

bastid

The "gotcha" moment with Flowey if you reload the game after killing Toriel is one of the most memorable parts. The game definitely sets you up for it, but it caught me totally off-guard when he called me out for reloading.

to elaborate more on what I said about it being the most successful "anti-war/pacifist" text:

the genius of the game is not only in how it makes its characters/narrative endearing but in how the gameplay mirrors this. it is more fun to spare the enemies than kill them. not to spoil anything, but the genocide route is a miserable experience in comparison.

Who was the B8er that killed Papyrus their first playthrough because they thought he was playing a trick on them? I always thought that was Pun, since that seems like a very Pun thing to do.

VintageGin posted...

The "gotcha" moment with Flowey if you reload the game after killing Toriel is one of the most memorable parts. The game definitely sets you up for it, but it caught me totally off-guard when he called me out for reloading.

yeah, it's all the little details that make Undertale so great. Back when it came out, I probably played through it 4-5 times just to see how the dialogue changes with certain characters alive or dead. The critical path through the game is short enough that you can get through it fairly quickly.
Honestly I think the best way to experience Undertale is to treat it as a regular RPG your first time through. Maybe kill some things, maybe grind some LV. Makes the Sans judgement at the end more meaningful, then you can see all the little changes on a replay. But so many people always seem to gravitate towards full pacifist their first time through, either because they already know about the game from its reputation or because they're metagaming. If I was toby, I probably would have gotten rid of the Froggit in the Ruins that implores you to SPARE enemies. Make it seem like an optional way to end battles rather than something the game wants you to always do.

colliding posted...

not to spoil anything, but the genocide route is a miserable experience in comparison.

the forced grinding is miserable, but the boss battles are more fun and rewarding than the main route.

Kenri posted...

I agree that the Asgore fight was bad. I must have died on him about 20 times before looking up the solution. Very unsatisfying.

I actually let him strike me down thinking the game was gonna do something

NOPE, game over

ughh
took me a few tries

someone actually made the comparison that "in Life, you do things you don't want to do" and while thats TRUE, that wasn't the theme it was trying to convey

so again, to go against what you've been doing the entire time was just lazy

a pretty decently sized blotch if you ask me

VintageGin posted...

The "gotcha" moment with Flowey if you reload the game after killing Toriel is one of the most memorable parts. The game definitely sets you up for it, but it caught me totally off-guard when he called me out for reloading.

wait WHAT!?!?!!?

this game really is the game that keeps giving, isn't it? You can probably write a damn book of all of the stuff thats in it like this

TF is insane LOL

also for the record, this game was given to me by skullbonek of b8 (I don't know if hes here anymore)

And @wg64Z gave me a donation on my birthday last month and requested this game to be played (as per my donation rules, I don't do RPGs, they cost more, but I made an exception)

so I just wanted to shout them out

WG told me to do a pacifist run so I already knew not to kill anyone as it was instructed of me

I honestly don't know what I would've done if I had not known anything at all

people in my audience were telling me Genocide runs were MORE difficult, I couldn't believe it, I figured being a pacifist was harder, striking people down was easier

but looks like you guys are confirming it

damn this game ain't over yet, huh?

also I was told if you dodge all the names in the credits you unlock something

Either nobody wanted to divulge what happens or they don't KNOW what happens if you complete this when I asked

OH one thing that was there JUST to be there and was never elaborated upon (I think)

When I died against the king

and fought him again

Frisk TELLS him he already killed them

The King just nods but continues

he knows it? does it just take it in stride? WHAT? WTF?!

Speaking of which

Someone pointed out to me that when you get a game over screen, its the KING'S voice telling you not to give up!
I wouldn't have picked up on that!

you unlock basically a dev room. the place in Snowden by Mr christmas deer. not super interesting

NFUN posted...

you unlock basically a dev room. the place in Snowden by Mr christmas deer. not super interesting

I could never do this in a million years but nice to know I'm not missing much then, guess I'll just youtube it

random note:
Because of the Tales Of Games, I pronounce "Undyne" as "Undini"

And this drove EVERYONE nuts, randos would come out of lurking just to correct me in my stream

I can't help it!

Do Genocide. It's the best run imo.

And it's the only way to have the best song play.

Punnyz posted...

wait WHAT!?!?!!?

this game really is the game that keeps giving, isn't it? You can probably write a damn book of all of the stuff thats in it like this

TF is insane LOL

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/8/6/AASPqvAAD05O.jpg

DeepsPraw posted...

If I was toby, I probably would have gotten rid of the Froggit in the Ruins that implores you to SPARE enemies. Make it seem like an optional way to end battles rather than something the game wants you to always do.

I agree. The tutorial really makes sparing enemies seem less like a moral choice and more like just playing the game correctly.

There are not many games I would even listen to an argument about it being perfect. Almost all of my favorite games ever have multiple flaws even I can see and recognize are flaws.

Undertale is one of two games (other being Outer Wilds) that I consider at least close to flawless. It knows exactly what it's setting out to do and does it to the highest degree.

And it was 98% done by one god damn person. Absolutely insane to think about.

MrSmartGuy posted...

There are not many games I would even listen to an argument about it being perfect. Almost all of my favorite games ever have multiple flaws even I can see and recognize are flaws.

Undertale is one of two games (other being Outer Wilds) that I consider at least close to flawless. It knows exactly what it's setting out to do and does it to the highest degree.

And it was 98% done by one god damn person. Absolutely insane to think about.

Hell yeah Outer Wilds

I would probably put Portal 1 in the "perfect" category. It's not one of my favorite games ever (probably up there though), but it does what it does so well

DeepsPraw posted...

But so many people always seem to gravitate towards full pacifist their first time through, either because they already know about the game from its reputation or because they're metagaming. If I was toby, I probably would have gotten rid of the Froggit in the Ruins that implores you to SPARE enemies. Make it seem like an optional way to end battles rather than something the game wants you to always do.

I think this is a result of the game's reputation more than anything else, so removing the Froggit wouldn't change anything. I actually really like that Undertale emphasizes SPAREing at different points in the game, because I think most people who somehow went into it blind still ended up playing it as a standard RPG on their first run. It makes Sans' judgement at the end hit harder if the game pushes you to SPARE, and you just...don't, for whatever reason.

TF is such a bastard

like, I want to do a Genocide run, right?

I can't help but feel, because characters ARE on the 4th wall, they'll fucking remember my Pacifist run and be like "WHY ARE YOU MURDERING US" or something
"HOW COULD YOU DO THIS"
"WEREN"T WE HAPPY?"

I almost want to watch a Lets play now, but I feel like the game will somehow call me out on THAT too like "What, you can't do your own dirty work you fucking pussy"

The game is a deconstruction of the PLAYER, not the game or even the genre

Kojima WISHES he did this with MGS2

Watching a youtube video of the Genocide differences is a valid option.

Did you go all the way back to the start of the game when you had the Pacifist ending walk around?
You can meet Asriel again and he has a pretty interesting scene.

YES Someone told me about it

they said you could do a victory lap around the game like in Earthbound and they also recommended talking to the turtle

but yea I wouldn't have guessed to do that, so I'm glad they spoke up

I always thought that Asgore destroying the Mercy option made it pretty obvious what to do.

TheRock1525 posted...

I always thought that Asgore destroying the Mercy option made it pretty obvious what to do.

anything is possible in this game so through the heart of the cards I figured it would come back

yeah it's a little dishonest. Lowering an enemy's health is a valid way to spare regular enemies, but the game actively discourages it with bosses. If you try that on Toriel, she dies at like half health

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-YI1avdtvuU/hqdefault.jpg

I can see why people got tripped up by Asgore, but I think it was fine.

DeepsPraw posted...

Lowering an enemy's health is a valid way to spare regular enemies

I actually did not know this, so MAYBE I would have come to that conclusion if I did? But I can't say for certain. That WOULD have been a small clue at least, a "back to basics" thing

Punnyz posted...

someone also recommended "Amori" or something like that

Omori, probably. I can't vouch for it myself (looks just a bit too dark for me) but a lot of people like it, especially the kinds of people that like Undertale

I'm starting to think I don't want to do a genocide run LOL

the game is gonna be fucking weird with it, I know it, I'm too ashamed

I'm also too stubborn, I ain't gonna play into TF's hands!