Current Events > You either support gun ownership, with the understanding things like this

(+) Yeah! (+)

will happen, or you're in favor of curtailing certain freedoms, like private ownership of firearms

I have yet to hear a practical middle ground that would garner bipartisan support

Practicality is useless when one side has gone completely insane

Was it NRA president LaPierre or Bill Oreilly that said things like this are necessary cost of freedom?

I could be misremembering the quote..

BeantownHero posted...

garner bipartisan support

Goodluck.

I'm fine with gun ownership. However, there needs to be more licensure around buying a gun. There also needs to be responsibility on the licensed individual if your guns are not properly stored and someone that is unable to qualify for a license due to mental health/age does harm to themselves or others as a result of this.

I've grown up around guns, but they've always been taken seriously and I have never seen someone harmed thanks to this caution. I do believe there needs to be more strict requirements to acquire a gun.

Because long rifles (AR-15s, AK-47s, Muzzleloaders, Hunting Rifles) do not need a FFL to conduct a sale, the absolute stockpile of guns out and about in the US would make a buyback an absolute nightmare. Outlawing the guns would just make a lot of people felons overnight. Creating better laws around the purchasing of guns now, would prevent this stockpile from increasing though.

I'm fine with gun ownership. However

Thats just it

There is no "however"

If you're in favor of mass private ownership of guns, THIS IS THE TRADE OFF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE WILLING TO ACCEPT

I don't get how people don't understand this. This is a shot at both Gun owners who won't own this and progressives who think "common sense refrorm" is anything more than empty platitudes

BeantownHero posted...

Thats just it

There is no "however"

just because you can own cars doesnt mean youre able to get a F1 car and drive it down the road

AsucaHayashi posted...

just because you can own cars doesnt mean youre able to get a F1 car and drive it down the road

The F1 equivalent was effectively banned in 1986.

Ah, you're not here for a discussion. Common sense reform is a step in the right direction. Keep shouting and nothing will ever get accomplished because apparently anything less than outright ban is an "empty platitude". Best of luck stirring up bipartisan support for that outright ban.

BeantownHero posted...

Thats just it

There is no "however"

If you're in favor of mass private ownership of guns, THIS IS THE TRADE OFF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE WILLING TO ACCEPT

I don't get how people don't understand this. This is a shot at both Gun owners who won't own this and progressives who think "common sense refrorm" is anything more than empty platitudes

I get the feeling you arent interested in nuance here. Regardless of what you feel you still need to ensure there is consensus and attacking people who make good points is t going to help facilitate that. If you arent interested in building consensus then this topic is just virtue signalling plain and simple.

SergeantGander posted...

Common sense reform is a step in the right direction.

Nobody knows what that means, other than meaningless restrictions on cosmetic features.

AsucaHayashi posted...

just because you can own cars doesnt mean youre able to get a F1 car and drive it down the road

You can drive ferraris anywhere. also, we accept that with mass ownership of cars, innocent people will die. Lots of them. Its the cost of one of the pillars of the modern world in terms of transportation.

I just want those who support mass private gun ownership to admit that this is an acceptable cost of maintaining this freedom to them, because there is no practical way, other than curtailing other freedoms, of preventing things like this from happening

BeantownHero posted...

Thats just it

There is no "however"

If you're in favor of mass private ownership of guns, THIS IS THE TRADE OFF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE WILLING TO ACCEPT

I don't get how people don't understand this. This is a shot at both Gun owners who won't own this and progressives who think "common sense refrorm" is anything more than empty platitudes

Its clear that you didnt read the rest of the post because good points where made. You are operating too much on feelings right now. I mean, I get it. All these mass shootings are awful and feelings are naturally running high. However, you have to think about the practicality of decisions.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Nobody knows what that means, other than meaningless restrictions on cosmetic features.

Stricter licensing, longer wait times. Gun safety courses similar to drivers safety courses.
Mental health checks.
Owner responsibility if their guns aren't properly stored and are used to commit harm by someone who isn't of age or who wouldn't be fit to own a gun.

SergeantGander posted...

Ah, you're not here for a discussion. Common sense reform is a step in the right direction. Keep shouting and nothing will ever get accomplished because apparently anything less than outright ban is an "empty platitude". Best of luck stirring up bipartisan support for that outright ban.

Yep

Thats why these people are their own worst enemy.

You cant just say Well if you own a gun you are ok with kids being slaughtered and expect to be taken seriously or expect to move the needle in any way

Ive stopped trying to debate this on here because the majority of this board has no idea what theyre talking about

SHRlKE posted...

I get the feeling you arent interested in nuance here. Regardless of what you feel you still need to ensure there is consensus and attacking people who make good points is t going to help facilitate that. If you arent interested in building consensus then this topic is just virtue signalling plain and simple.

How can you prevent someone with no real record from buying a gun and killing school children without curtailing other freedoms?

some freedoms shouldn't be

SergeantGander posted...

Gun safety courses similar to drivers safety courses.

I had to take one of those for some reason, when I was 14 or so.

DyingPancake posted...

Yep

Thats why these people are their own worst enemy.

You cant just say Well if you own a gun you are ok with kids being slaughtered and expect to be taken seriously or expect to move the needle in any way

Ive stopped trying to debate this on here because the majority of this board has no idea what theyre talking about

Oh, i know that this debate is over

Gun owners wont own what the cost of that freedom comes with

those who keep yelling to "Do something!" don't want to admit the only real "something" that would stop this is banning of private gun ownership

So this stuff will keep happening.

SergeantGander posted...

Common sense reform is a step in the right direction. Keep shouting and nothing will ever get accomplished because apparently anything less than outright ban is an "empty platitude". Best of luck stirring up bipartisan support for that outright ban.

There's no bipartisan support for common sense reform, either.

So what you're saying is

Accept guns as they are and accept that mass shootings are going to happen and the tradeoff is that we have to accept the possibility of friends, family, and/or our children getting ruthlessly murdered, while listening to people say shit like "paid actors, false flag, blah blah etc."

Or

Have stricter gun laws that will at the very least limit the possibility of shit like this happening again.

I, however, would like to introduce a 3rd option.

Shut the fuck up.

Even other countries with private gun ownership don't have the level of gun violence we have.

Shut the fuck up.

The american debate on guns honestly couldn't be summed up any better

because that's what we will do

Until this happens again

So, your solution is... do nothing?

Whether or not you personally feel it to be true, laws actually do curtail some people's actions.

Yes. If a person wants to do damage, they will figure out a way to do damage. But there are many, MANY, people that will abide by the restrictions that new or revamped gun laws would provide.

Comparison: Yes, people will still speed on the highway regardless of posted limits and fines, but if we put restrictions and punishments for speeding, it usually curtails people driving at excessive speeds. And that's why we do it.

And how about we stop voting for people that do and say things like this:

Texas has made it easier to purchase guns in recent months despite the state's playing host to a series of mass shootings in recent memory, including the killing of a combined 30 people in El Paso and Odessa in 2019.

A new state law that came into force on September 1 allowed anyone aged over 21 to carry a handgun in most places without a permit or training. The bill was put forward by Texas Republicans.

Before the change, Texans had to pass a background check, take a safety course, and take a competency test to get a license.

At the time, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said the permit-less carry law was the "biggest and best" gun law of 2021 that "instilled freedom" in Texas.

the solutions by and large are right there without touching guns. no one wants to either touch those solutions, know how or they want to turn the system into a full blown socialist state.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Nobody knows what that means, other than meaningless restrictions on cosmetic features.

How about extensive background checks and a waiting period between attempt to purchase and the actual sale?

So, your solution is... do nothing?

No. I don't believe the occasional massacre, in addition to all other damage caused by private ownership, is worth the cost

i support a ban on ownership

bigblu89 posted...

How about extensive background checks and a waiting period between attempt to purchase and the actual sale?

How, exactly, does that prevent someone with no record, from purchasing guns and murdering school children?

BeantownHero posted...

those who keep yelling to "Do something!" don't want to admit the only real "something" that would stop this is banning of private gun ownership

fuck that, i am the first to admit that. guns need to be taken away from the vast majority of people who currently own them either legally or illegally, by force if necessary

BeantownHero posted...

How can you prevent someone with no real record from buying a gun and killing school children without curtailing other freedoms?

You can't.

But you can prevent it if they have mental health issues, like past shooters have had, by using extensive background checks, along with closing loopholes where sales at gun shows don't need to have any real checks and balances.

Would it specifically prevent what happened yesterday? Maybe not. But it may prevent the next one from happening.

BeantownHero posted...

How, exactly, does that prevent someone with no record, from purchasing guns and murdering school children?

It doesn't. You can go to gun shows or even flea markets and buy a gun straight up, and there's no waiting period for it.

You can't

I just want those who support private gun ownership to admit this.

We can't even get that far.

Dark_Spiret posted...

the solutions by and large are right there without touching guns. no one wants to either touch those solutions, know how or they want to turn the system into a full blown socialist state.

what "solutions" that don't involve guns at all would that be?

BeantownHero posted...

How, exactly, does that prevent someone with no record, from purchasing guns and murdering school children?

Like I said, it doesn't.

But it may prevent the next one from happening.

Antifar posted...

There's no bipartisan support for common sense reform, either.

That's a huge issue and I get that.

I think the problem is there are many on the left, spouting TC's rhetoric. Then there are many on the right that think any sort of reform means all their guns are gone forever.

Now as politicians who represent those people and want to get elected again it gets pretty tricky to come together on a bill that will garner bipartisan support to get approved, without jeopardizing their seat. While I certainly think long term reform is more important than any one politicians job, try convincing them all of that.

The polarization on the issue has made it so common sense reform gets shot down by both sides before it can even really be discussed. I wish I had a solution, but I just don't know...

BeantownHero posted...

I just want those who support private gun ownership to admit this.

We can't even get that far.

So just ignore the rest of what I said? Specifically:

But you can prevent it if they have mental health issues, like past shooters have had, by using extensive background checks, along with closing loopholes where sales at gun shows don't need to have any real checks and balances.

Would it specifically prevent what happened yesterday? Maybe not. But it may prevent the next one from happening.

You're basically saying "why fix the leak if my basement is already flooded?"

AltyMcAltface posted...

fuck that, i am the first to admit that. guns need to be taken away from the vast majority of people who currently own them either legally or illegally, by force if necessary

Here's how you do that:
https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/article-5/

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

How?

BeantownHero posted...

How can you prevent someone with no real record from buying a gun and killing school children without curtailing other freedoms?

What does "no real record" mean in this context? To answer your question though I agree. It is going to be difficult, if not impossible to stop someone from buying a gun and killing school children based on the current rules.

In an ideal world you aren't going to be able to stop every single gun related death even with 100% bipartisan support. Like most things in this world it's about risk mitigation. Some people seem to want to frame it as anything less than a 100% perfect solution isn't worth embracing but I disagree with them. Implementing things that reduce the risk even if it doesn't eliminate it completely is still worth doing.

Changes to gun ownership laws is going to be a generational process and done in incremental steps. It's not going to happen overnight. It's need a constant push over many years and decades and throwing your toys out of the pram or alienating those who would otherwise agree with your general sentiment is self defeating. What is your actual goal here? To actually have a discussion and try to make the world a better place or just angrily shout and virtue signal?

You mention cars which I think is a good discussion point because there have been things implemented over the years such as stopping people from using their mobiles when driving, making drink driving illegal or simply making people wear safety belts. Do people still die in cars? Yes. Have deaths reduced per capita of drives since some of these items were implemented. Hell yeah. No one arguing in good faith should be suggesting removing drink driving laws because people still drink is a sensible stance to take.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Are you seriously suggesting that background checks are racist?

You're basically saying "why fix the leak if my basement is already flooded?"

More like i have a solution to permanently prevent the house from flooding and keep getting met with a mix of "common sense reform" that will result in the house simply being flooded less and those who believe our ability to prevent tyranny is worth the occasional flood, but wont admit that.

SHRlKE posted...

What does "no real record" mean in this context? To answer your question though I agree. It is going to be difficult, if not impossible to stop someone from buying a gun and killing school children based on the current rules.

In an ideal world you aren't going to be able to stop every single gun related death even with 100% bipartisan support. Like most things in this world it's about risk mitigation. Some people seem to want to frame it as anything less than a 100% perfect solution isn't worth embracing but I disagree with them. Implementing things that reduce the risk even if it doesn't eliminate it completely is still worth doing.

Changes to gun ownership laws is going to be a generational process and done in incremental steps. It's not going to happen overnight. It's need a constant push over many years and decades and throwing your toys out of the pram or alienating those who would otherwise agree with your general sentiment is self defeating. What is your actual goal here? To actually have a discussion and try to make the world a better place or just angrily shout and virtue signal?

You mention cars which I think is a good discussion point because there have been things implemented over the years such as stopping people from using their mobiles when driving, making drink driving illegal or simply making people wear safety belts. Do people still die in cars? Yes. Have deaths reduced per capita of drives since some of these items were implemented. Hell yeah. No one arguing in good faith should be suggesting removing drink driving laws because people still drink is a sensible stance to take.

Jesus Christ, 100% THIS.

This idea of "Either fix it 100% or don't fix it at all" is an asinine stance to take.

Problem is we already have background checks and such, but only at stores.

Flea Markets and Gun Shows don't have or require background checks, you can just walk in, lay your money down and walk out with your new gun.

Not to mention there's other ways to get them illegally.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Are you seriously suggesting that background checks are racist?

I don't think it's stretch to accept that black people make up a unproportionate number of poor and marginalised demographics.

TC sounds like he just wants to win "argument points" in his head so he can continue to paint those who want private gun ownership as immoral or something.

BeantownHero posted...

More like i have a solution to permanently prevent the house flooding and keep getting met with "common sense reform" that will result in the house simply being flooded less

But that's the thing. At the moment, where there's no nationally agreed upon way to fix the "leak", taking measures to have the leak happen less often than just saying "fuck it, let the water flow".

This doesn't have to be a 100% overnight solution.

AltyMcAltface posted...

what "solutions" that don't involve guns at all would that be?

easier access to healthcare. mental healthcare, better counseling for schools and in general. better job securities- paid leave, more vacation time, stock options ect. decliminalize more drugs, police reform and de-militerization. harsher penalties for illegal gun usages. prison reform. more political party options. easier access to collage and schooling. inflation based minimum wage increase. better community outreach programs. lots of other stuff, but thats off the top of my head. and im not saying FREE FREE FREE shit, but atleast make more things more available at easier price points depending on the circumstances.

SHRlKE posted... You mention cars which I think is a good discussion point because there have been things implemented over the years such as stopping people from using their mobiles when driving, making drink driving illegal or simply making people wear safety belts.

iv never liked the car comparison specifically because most of those safety features are so you dont accidently hurt those around you who are also driving. without intent, a gun doesnt work like that unless youre negligent with storing it. it also doesnt require 100 rules in order to safely use in public. the licensing angel would only really be there because someone said so, not because it needed to be.

SHRlKE posted...

I don't think it's stretch to accept that black people make up a unproportionate number of poor and marginalized demographics.

What does that have to do with passing or failing mental background check?

Dark_Spiret posted...

easier access to healthcare. mental healthcare, better counseling for schools and in general. better job securities- paid leave, more vacation time, stock options ect. decliminalize more drugs, police reform and de-militerization. harsher penalties for illegal gun usages. prison reform. more political party options. easier access to collage and schooling. better community outreach programs. lots of other stuff, but thats off the top of my head. and im not saying FREE FREE FREE shit, but atleast make more things more available at easier price points depending on the circumstances.

Unfortunately none of that will ever happen. It upsets the status quo.

I'm not sure that prohibition is the answer. Didn't work with alcohol, certainly isn't working with drugs.