Current Events > Equality under the law in all circumstances is absurd.

(+) Yeah! (+)

No not talking about race and sex and all that so you can go ahead and fuck off bigots.

Those with power and wealth absolutely should be held to a higher standard then those without. Especially with fines. A flat 50k fine that might drive a mom and pop to homelessness or suicide isn't even a rounding error to a corporate CEO.

Say If I as a service worker am charged 500 for a speeding ticket, someone making a million year should be charged 50k and Elon Musk should be charged 500 million.

Get rid of fines entirely.
If a crime is minor enough that a token amount of money makes it "settled" with society, then maybe it shouldn't even be a crime.

I know I've been on CE too long when I read that as "circumcision".

Prestoff posted...

I know I've been on CE too long when I read that as "circumcision".

Equality under the law in all circumcisions would certainly be interesting, tho.

Like when someone in a better position to not steal faces less of a penalty then someone else because the judge thinks it would hurt their position/standing in the community. It's frustrating.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Get rid of fines entirely.
If a crime is minor enough that a token amount of money makes it "settled" with society, then maybe it shouldn't even be a crime.

Eh fines have their uses when done right. Throwing people in prison for even the most trivial offenses seems bad when we already have prisons overcrowed to the point that its often a humanitarian crisis that spirals itself into an ever worse money pit and crime situation.

Fines should be used to fund safety nets, rehabilitation efforts, and for reperations/repairs to damaged infastructure/nature and thosr victimized.

That said we overcriminalize many things we could wipe away a pretty big chunk of most criminal codes without hurting society. Although some areas need to be harsher and more expansive mostly relating to corporations and police themselves...

But the things that do remain criminal do need to have SOME sort of teeth to them. Deterance, punishment and rehabilitation do have a place.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Get rid of fines entirely.
If a crime is minor enough that a token amount of money makes it "settled" with society, then maybe it shouldn't even be a crime.

You mean like monetary fines? Do you think monetary fines serve as a deterrence in any way?

What about if traffic violations lead more to being able to lose your license.

Sliding scale fines is equity.

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

Throwing people in prison for even the most trivial offenses seems bad when we already habe prisons overcrowed to the point that its often a humanitarian crisis that spirals itself into an ever worse money pit and crime situation.

A weekend in jail for speeding would definitely be more of a deterrent than a minor fine and court fees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qb-6PyNFKs

or, just double up the punishment for causing a wreck, and stop worrying about speeding

Fines should be used to fund safety nets, rehabilitation efforts, and for reperations/repairs to damaged infastructure/nature and thosr victimized.

Do we really want a society that's dependent on people breaking the law? All you get out of that is more and more-asinine laws, all for the sake of generating revenue.

Questionmarktarius posted...

A weekend in jail for speeding would definitely be more of a deterrent than a minor fine and court fees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qb-6PyNFKs

or, just double up the punishment for causing a wreck, and stop worrying about speeding

god it just never fails that any time I click a topic that is even slightly political I see you posting the absolute dumbest fucking shit I've ever seen

I dont understand why you think that income or wealth based fines are not equality.

Still not clear on why bribery is still an issue. I mean I know people will choose money over doing the right thing.

But if say someone like Trump has done much damage to society figuratively and literally, couldn't he be fined so that way officials can punish him while taking his money (By force)?

Tenlaar posted...

I dont understand why you think that income or wealth based fines are not equality.

Its not about how I percieve it. A lot of society(especially conservatives) have a very shallow simple definition of equality and justice when they even bother pretending to care about it.

Equality is not the goal beyond immutable characterstics though. Equity>>>>>>equality.

Merit and individuality have a place I don't think a large society can successfully enforce equal distribution of resources but it can provide the minimum for close to everyone and minimize overly large imbalances that lead to conflict and corruption.

DarthAragorn posted...

god it just never fails that any time I click a topic that is even slightly political I see you posting the absolute dumbest fucking shit I've ever seen

He's not the worst conservatroll out there, but he is STILL a conservatroll at heart.

Tenlaar posted...

I dont understand why you think that income or wealth based fines are not equality.

They are by definition not equality. You might be able to argue equity, but certainly not equality.

willythemailboy posted...

They are by definition not equality. You might be able to argue equity, but certainly not equality.

You must be using a different definition of equality.

willythemailboy posted...

They are by definition not equality.

It arguably could be, if the fines were a fixed percent of income.
What percent of income should we confiscate for driving 20 over the limit, or jaywalking, or dumping mercury into the river?

Questionmarktarius posted...

It arguably could be, if the fines were a fixed percent of income.
What percent of income should we confiscate for driving 20 over the limit, or jaywalking, or dumping mercury into the river?

Jaywalking should only be a crime when done recklessly. Its essentially required to jaywalk to navigate many urban areas in a reasonable, timely and safe manner.

I've been almost hit by more cars on the sidewalk(not from driveways either) and with the right of way at a crossing EACH then I have by carefully jaywalking.

Mercury dumping should bankrupt a person and give them lengthy prison sentence on top of that.

DarthAragorn posted...

god it just never fails that any time I click a topic that is even slightly political I see you posting the absolute dumbest fucking shit I've ever seen

How is that any more dumb than insisting Elon Musk pay like a million dollars for a parking ticket?

emblem-man posted...

You mean like monetary fines? Do you think monetary fines serve as a deterrence in any way?

What about if traffic violations lead more to being able to lose your license.

This is probably the best solution IMO

Throwing someone in jail over a speeding ticket is laughably ridiculous, but fines also don't work because they hurt the poor FAR more than they hurt the rich.

Traffic violations being a mark against your driving record with associated penalties is the best.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Get rid of fines entirely.
If a crime is minor enough that a token amount of money makes it "settled" with society, then maybe it shouldn't even be a crime.

You do realize that most traffic violations only result in a fine. You want to just get rid of most driving laws?

Questionmarktarius posted...

How is that any more dumb than insisting Elon Musk pay like a million dollars for a parking ticket?

The idea is that you hit them with an amount that would actually work as a deterrent, the way it does for poorer people.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Throwing someone in jail over a speeding ticket is laughably ridiculous

Weekend sentencing is already a thing for petty shoplifting.

NoxObscuras posted...

You do realize that most traffic violations only result in a fine. You want to just get rid of most driving laws?

Yes. People drive like idiots all the time, and the usual consequence is horns and middle fingers.

Put the punishment when actual harm happens.
Run a red and t-bone someone, you're gonna have a bad time. Sneak in right after the light changes, nothing happens. If anything, the yellow should be longer.
Red light cameras are universally hated, and you can't have a cop waiting at every light all the time, so it's dumb to have a sometimes fine for something where 99.99999% of the violations are ignored or never noticed.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Weekend sentencing is already a thing for petty shoplifting.

I don't think shoplifting and running a stop sign should fall into the same category.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I don't think shoplifting and running a stop sign should fall into the same category.

So you do a saturday afternoon in jail, or go pick up trash by the highway.
Of course, community service itself may be a problem, as it becomes associated with punishment instead of volunteerism.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Put the punishment when actual harm happens.
Run a red and t-bone someone, you're gonna have a bad time. Sneak in right after the light changes, nothing happens. If anything, the yellow should be longer.

This kinda implies that traffic violations only matter if physical harm happens which I don't think is true. Traffic violations impact peoples choices, such as deciding to go for a walk for example. I won't feel safer about being a pedestrian just because I saw 10 close calls with a pedestrian instead of an actual accident. Both will make me think twice about walking in an area.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Red light cameras are universally hated,

We should have more of them regardless

emblem-man posted...

I won't feel safer about being a pedestrian just because I saw 10 close calls with a pedestrian instead of an actual accident. Both will make me think twice about walking in an area.

Blame the classic North American stroad for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad

Residential neighborhoods should be full of bumps and berms, making it functionally impossible to speed, rather than put up an arbitrary sign that's never enforced until some kid chases a ball into the street and gets splatted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_calming

emblem-man posted...

We should have more of them regardless

The penalize the car (or rather, the owner), and not the driver. Cars can't break laws, only people can.
Also it's a total grift on the part of the contractors supplying the cameras.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Blame the classic North American stroad for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad

Residential neighborhoods should be full of bumps and berms, making it functionally impossible to speed, rather than put up an arbitrary sign that's never enforced until some kid chases a ball into the street.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_calming

The penalize the car (or rather, the owner), and not the driver. Cars can't break laws, only people can.

True. A lot of people get fucked by tickets from a stolen car or duped/stolen plates.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Blame the classic North American stroad for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad

Residential neighborhoods should be full of bumps and berms, making it functionally impossible to speed, rather than put up an arbitrary sign that's never enforced until some kid chases a ball into the street and gets splatted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_calming

Oh trust me, I'm for re-designing the roads as well to force lower speeds.

Questionmarktarius posted...

It arguably could be, if the fines were a fixed percent of income.

Not really if you look at edge cases. The fines structure would end up as complicated as the tax code.

100k income isn't going to be the same if one person lives in NYC vs Craphole Iowa, or one person is single and the other is a single parent of 5.

Or zero "income" if one is a trust fund baby whose parents pay for everything vs a disabled person on welfare.

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

No not talking about race and sex and all that so you can go ahead and fuck off bigots.

Those with power and wealth absolutely should be held to a higher standard then those without. Especially with fines. A flat 50k fine that might drive a mom and pop to homelessness or suicide isn't even a rounding error to a corporate CEO.

Say If I as a service worker am charged 500 for a speeding ticket, someone making a million year should be charged 50k and Elon Musk should be charged 500 million.

That's why I believe fines should be a percentage of income or total wealth

willythemailboy posted...

Not really if you look at edge cases. The fines structure would end up as complicated as the tax code.

So then, what's the methodology?
Why should someone with no kids pay more for rolling through a stop sign? We're already paying for schools we don't use.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

This is probably the best solution IMO

Throwing someone in jail over a speeding ticket is laughably ridiculous, but fines also don't work because they hurt the poor FAR more than they hurt the rich.

Traffic violations being a mark against your driving record with associated penalties is the best.

A lot of places do both. Tickets come with fines but also put points on your license. Get ten points and you lose your license for a year or whatever. For normal people the fine is the deterrent and for those who can afford the fines without noticing the points are the deterrent.

Questionmarktarius posted...

So then, what's the methodology?
Why should someone with no kids pay more for rolling through a stop sign? We're already paying for schools we don't use.

The "methodology" is that proportional fines are a terminally dumb idea.

willythemailboy posted...

For normal people the fine is the deterrent and for those who can afford the fines without noticing the points are the deterrent.

Or, you lawyer it down to a non-points "equipment" violation, and end up paying about ten times as much overall anyway, give or take fucked insurance premiums.

*Insert "Stop Breaking the Law, Asshole!" gif from Liar, Liar*

willythemailboy posted...

The "methodology" is that proportional fines are a terminally dumb idea.

Well, yeah, but you gotta slowly nudge the advocates to work that out for themselves.

willythemailboy posted...

The "methodology" is that proportional fines are a terminally dumb idea.

Flat fines that functionally mean the wealthy dont have to obey the same rules as the rest of us are far worse.

Tenlaar posted...

Flat fines that functionally mean the wealthy dont have to obey the same rules as the rest of us are far worse.

So is your solution to have the fine be a percentage of a person's net worth? Percentage of what they have liquid? Percentage based on the value of the vehicle that caused the violation?

Don't complain about the problem without giving a proper solution.

bigblu89 posted...

So is your solution to have the fine be a percentage of a person's net worth? Percentage of what they have liquid? Percentage based on the value of the vehicle that caused the violation?

Don't complain about the problem without giving a proper solution.

Base it on the last tax return. Have some contengencies in place.

We aren't writing the damn bill here man. Making fines not drive poor people homeless but actually detering the wealthy is the idea not the text of a bill we sent to our representatives.

Seriously pointing out the basics of a better way is okay. We don't need the entire roadmap laid out to get the ball rolling. Pointing out an issue does not fucking require having a perfected solution ready to go.

bigblu89 posted...

So is your solution to have the fine be a percentage of a person's net worth? Percentage of what they have liquid? Percentage based on the value of the vehicle that caused the violation?

Don't complain about the problem without giving a proper solution.

I thought my general belief about a solution was pretty evident from posting in a thread about proportional fines and clearly indicating that flat fines are worse than having to deal with the more complicated process of assigning proportional fines. I doubt youre going to consider me saying net worth here to be any more of a solution than my previous post.

Tenlaar posted...

I thought my general belief about a solution was pretty evident from posting in a thread about proportional fines and clearly indicating that flat fines are worse than having to deal with the more complicated process of assigning proportional fines. I doubt youre going to consider me saying net worth here to be any more of a solution than my previous post.

Not that I'm stanning for the wealthy, becasue fuck em, but if we both get caught pissing in public, the idea that my fine should be $50 but yours should be $100 because your job pays you twice as much as mine does seems odd to me. Then 2 years from now we both get caught again, but this time you're unemployed and I got a promotion, so I'm paying the $100 this time around, and you're only paying $20 becasue you're collecting unemployment.

All this will do is have the wealthy find even more loopholes to hide their wealth, while us middle and lower class people will get nickel and dimed to death.

bigblu89 posted...

Not that I'm stanning for the wealthy, becasue fuck em, but if we both get caught pissing in public, the idea that my fine should be $50 but yours should be $100 because your job pays you twice as much as mine does seems odd to me. Then 2 years from now we both get caught again, but this time you're unemployed and I got a promotion, so I'm paying the $100 this time around, and you're only paying $20 becasue you're collecting unemployment.

All this will do is have the wealthy find even more loopholes to hide their wealth, while us middle and lower class people will get nickel and dimed to death.

Do you think fines provide a deterrence for crimes such as that? If you don't (which might be true, maybe it doesn't), then we should do away with any fine at all and push for some form of non financial penalty, for example, jail time. Which still impacts poor people more, but let's ignore that for now.

Or do you just feel icky about the idea of paying more solely because you make more money?

Questionmarktarius posted...

Get rid of fines entirely.
If a crime is minor enough that a token amount of money makes it "settled" with society, then maybe it shouldn't even be a crime.

Yeah, that's a terrible idea.

emblem-man posted...

Do you think fines provide a deterrence for crimes such as that? If you don't (which might be true, maybe it doesn't), then we should do away with any fine at all and push for some form of non financial penalty, for example, jail time. Which still impacts poor people more, but let's ignore that for now.

Or do you just feel icky about the idea of paying more solely because you make more money?

I guess I can only speak for myself, but to me, the fine is enough of a deterrent to have me not do something where safety isn't an issue. Like the example I gave. Pissing in public (although not even a crime in many place anymore) is a victimless crime, but still a fineable offense. The fine is enough for me not to do it, compared to something like running a stop sign/light, where safety is more of a deterrent.

I can't say for sure, because I'm not one, but I don't think if I was a millionaire I would be running red lights and risking mine and my family's lives just becasue I can afford the fine more easily. I also don't think I would be whipping my dick out an pissing everywhere if I was a millionaire and have hundreds of dollars to burn in fines.