Current Events > Biden ready to send more cluster bombs to Ukraine

(+) Yeah! (+)

averagejoel posted...

so you think ukrainian national identity is more important than the lives of actual ukrainian people?

I think that's a choice the Ukrainian people should make, and that's definitively the choice they are making.

ai123 posted...

Biden has the power to override the 1% failure rate stipulation.

Which is what he is doing.

He doesnt need to. The manufacturers failure rate for them is 1%.

But you all missed the point. Russia has been using cluster bombs for the entirety of the conflict. And our safer versions meet two requirements;
theyre not prohibited by Ukraine or Russia, and theres a very real chance we fail to keep Ukraine supplied with munitions if we dont.

Ukraine has the right to use them responsibly in their own country to repel invaders.

It is better for Ukraine to bear the cost of cleanup and the moral tragedy of unexploded ordnance than it is for Ukrainians to get conquered, genocided, and erased

skullmagic2 posted...

I'm sorry, is your argument that countries should just let themselves be conquered with as little bloodshed as possible rather than fighting defensive wars against invading armies?

Well, yes he does believe that, because he thinks Russia and China are good countries that invade sovereign nations for good reasons because communism.

hockeybub89 posted...

Well, yes he does believe that, because he thinks Russia and China are good countries that invade sovereign nations for good reasons because communism.

this is a lie and you know it

What good is this going to do for the Ukrainian people? Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that Bidens strategy is to use Ukraine to exhaust Russian power. I get it, but wish the escalation would stop.

whitelytning posted...

What good is this going to do for the Ukrainian people? Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that Bidens strategy is to use Ukraine to exhaust Russian power. I get it, but wish the escalation would stop.

You know, Ukraine have used them earlier in the war...

Foppe posted...

You know, Ukraine have used them earlier in the war...

Thats nice. Everything I said is still true.

whitelytning posted...

Thats nice. Everything I said is still true.

Russia with their incompetent army will fight harder because Ukraine got the ammo they need to defend themself?

whitelytning posted...

What good is this going to do for the Ukrainian people? Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that Bidens strategy is to use Ukraine to exhaust Russian power. I get it, but wish the escalation would stop.

The alternative is they stop having artillery to use. Which means that Russia will be able to build up their own artillery and shell Ukranian troops with impunity.

So theres that.

whitelytning posted...

What good is this going to do for the Ukrainian people? Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that Bidens strategy is to use Ukraine to exhaust Russian power. I get it, but wish the escalation would stop.

You're right! If Ukraine use cluster bombs than Russia might invade them and start killing their people!...Oh wait.

I could have sworn we made fucking cluster bombs illegal.

Guess not.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Theyll create new ones as well.

pnut027 posted...

I could have sworn we made fucking cluster bombs illegal.

Guess not.

There is a convention that bans the production, transfer, stockpiling and use of cluster munitions in all circumstances. Neither Russia, Ukraine, nor the United States have signed it.

I'm getting kind of worried what's left of out old weapon cache at this point if cluster bombs are being green lit.

But hopefully this war will end sooner rather then later from this.

whitelytning posted...

What good is this going to do for the Ukrainian people? Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that Bidens strategy is to use Ukraine to exhaust Russian power. I get it, but wish the escalation would stop.

what escalation? the only way russia can escalate from what they have already done is using a nuke or attacking the nuclear facility they have been thinking about attacking anyway. ukraine defending itself is not an escalation at all and they could only really escalate by attacking inside russia

pnut027 posted...

Theyll create new ones as well.

You cant create a minefield where the land is already a minefield.

Theyre being used to push back Russian troops on land that has been covered in trenches and mines.

Prismsblade posted...

I'm getting kind of worried what's left of out old weapon cache at this point if cluster bombs are being green lit.

But hopefully this war will end sooner rather then later from this.

We currently have the weapons and ammunition for everything but a protracted war according to the Pentagon.

Prismsblade posted...

I'm getting kind of worried what's left of out old weapon cache at this point if cluster bombs are being green lit.

But hopefully this war will end sooner rather then later from this.

To be crass, the Ukraine War has been extremely good for the military industrial complex. That sounds like it's a knock against us supporting Ukraine, but it's not. We've still got loads of weapons and equipment, loads more are being built, and loads more still are getting contracted. Our defense structure is fine and decense contractors here are making a fortune.

We've gotten really damn good at funding proxy wars.

Yeah there's a hell of a lot to be angry at the military industrial complex for

But helping Ukraine fend off Russian invasion is one of the few things you shouldn't be mad about

whitelytning posted...

What good is this going to do for the Ukrainian people? Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that Bidens strategy is to use Ukraine to exhaust Russian power. I get it, but wish the escalation would stop.

Russia is not going to stop until they are exhausted. There wouldn't be any war if they didn't invade a sovereign nation and kill or displace millions of innocent Ukrainians. Obviously the US and NATO have a personal interest in stopping Russia, but don't act like this is comparable to America's Middle East farce. Russia cannot be allowed to win.

An actual justified fight for once and NOW people are anti-war.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

25,000 rubles have been deposited into your account.

So many Russian shills.

averagejoel posted...

this is a lie and you know it

You always have an excuse when it comes to this crap and you hide it behind a veil of nuance.

whitelytning posted...

Its unnecessary escalation and if they are ever used the Russian response is going to be much worse.

What's going to get worse? The bombing of population centers, the raping and pillaging that's been going on since the opening days of the war, the armored vehicles firing on fleeing civilian cars, the mass graves outside of Russian controlled cities, the destruction of critical infrastructure leading to enormous environmental damage?

Every time the "this is an escalation by the West, one more red line crossed" talking point comes up it's always from a certain group.

You disagree with me on a topic?

Russian shill

Idk how i missed averagejoel shilling for ukrainian genocide by weasel wording itt but not surprising in the least

Dragon56 posted...

You disagree with me on a topic?

Russian shill

It would be pretty silly if disagreeing on the best pizza topping got you labeled a Russian shill.

Good thing this is a topic about Russia invading a country and killing lots of people, and not something unrelated.

Not read the topic but this is the sort of shit we'd be protesting against Russia or Syria for doing. I remember at least during the golf wars we hid the fact we were using disgusting weapons now we just out right don't give a shit anymore I see.

SHRlKE posted...

Not read the topic but this is the sort of shit we'd be protesting against Russia or Syria for doing. I remember at least during the golf wars we hid the fact we were using disgusting weapons now we just out right don't give a shit anymore I see.

Agreed. If Ukraine attacked Russia, nobody should give Ukraine clusterbombs.

SHRlKE posted...

the golf wars

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/4/5/AAds4pAAEo-9.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/4/6/AAds4pAAEo--.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/4/7/AAds4pAAEo-_.jpg

Dragon56 posted...

You disagree with me on a topic?

Russian shill

if you disagree that ukraine deserves to exist or have self determination the chances are high that you would be shilling for russia

BurmesePenguin posted...

Agreed. If Ukraine attacked Russia, nobody should give Ukraine clusterbombs.

Ukraine shouldn't use cluster bombs even if they aren't the aggressor.

SHRlKE posted...

Ukraine shouldn't use cluster bombs even if they aren't the aggressor.

Delusional post.

The fact the entire west has come out in criticism of this. Including the US' biggest ally, the UK, puts me in good company so I don't acknowledge your comment.

While in a perfect world, Ukraine wouldn't need to use Cluster bombs, here we are.

K181 posted...

To be crass, the Ukraine War has been extremely good for the military industrial complex. That sounds like it's a knock against us supporting Ukraine, but it's not. We've still got loads of weapons and equipment, loads more are being built, and loads more still are getting contracted. Our defense structure is fine and decense contractors here are making a fortune.

We've gotten really damn good at funding proxy wars.

I'd believe it was lucrative if we were selling said weapons and equipment, but we're giving it away. And once that stockpile is depleted creating more will take alot of resources and time.

Not that you aren't wrong but greenlighting cluster bombs probably wouldn't be necessary if we had the stockpiles still and capacity to keep churning out everything we were giving them prior.

So just to be on the safe side I'm hoping it doesn't drag on for much longer.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Reminder, this poster said it was outrageous to have supported the capitol police using force to put down the insurrection. Dismissed.

Kaiganeer posted...

that's cool, but still not enough. NATO countries need to deploy troops into ukraine with the US leading the charge

Absolutely not. The moment a NATO troops are KIA by a Russian engagement or vice versa would escalate things beyond the point of no return. Considering how the shape of Russian forces in the region at the moment, they'd quickly be overrun if NATO troops engaged militarily. They'd be forced to use tactical nukes almost immediately just to defend their border. Once tactical nukes are used, it's only a matter of minutes that more conventional nuclear weapons would be deployed....and thus WW3. Put yourself in the shoes of the American people that just saw whole divisions of your troops wiped out by tactical nukes...you'd demand that your government respond with an even higher escalation retaliatory strike. As much as I'm more arming Ukraine, definitely not for NATO getting involved with troops. Russia doesn't want this, we don't want this. Bad enough that we have the defense pact with Taiwan should China decide to try and strike them. One of the worst defense pacts we ever made...sure let's start a nuclear war w/ China over Taiwan....whoever thought that over and said okay to that was a real genius.

We could go the route that Putin went and send in PMCs. Honestly we could pound Russia into the ground by ourselves but as keeping NATO as a defensive treaty alliance is worth it we could send those dipshit PMCs in there.

Or better yet. Fund some rebels on another border to cross in and start destroying shit.

Because the real problem is that the Russians are cowards. They sit in trenches behind minefields while Moscow lobs missiles from across the border. This doesnt end until Putin is ended.

Here's the issue with the cluster bombs being used for defense:

1) Public perception / potential loss of public support from nations the Ukraine is receiving aid
2) Dealing with the aftermath decades after

Now, obviously the US government, Ukraine government, military analyst, public poll analysts, etc etc all got together and decided that it was worth the costs described above. And no one here have all the information / analysis that the governments did when the decision was made.

The US and Ukraine aren't doing this because "hey, we need a summer movie event", and the people making the decision probably are the people least happy with the necessity (the US officials for the international rep hit, Ukraine officials because they need to live with the consequence decades into the future).

So, I'm sure there was a very good and urgent need for the weapon use.
Pretty shocked that such need existed, but no one here (or in various media / npo) has the information that the governments do.

Requiem posted...

Here's the issue with the cluster bombs being used for defense:

1) Public perception / potential loss of public support from nations the Ukraine is receiving aid
2) Dealing with the aftermath decades after

Now, obviously the US government, Ukraine government, military analyst, public poll analysts, etc etc all got together and decided that it was worth the costs described above. And no one here have all the information / analysis that the governments did when the decision was made.

The US and Ukraine aren't doing this because "hey, we need a summer movie event", and the people making the decision probably are the people least happy with the necessity (the US officials for the international rep hit, Ukraine officials because they need to live with the consequence decades into the future).

So, I'm sure there was a very good and urgent need for the weapon use.
Pretty shocked that such need existed, but no one here (or in various media / npo) has the information that the governments do.

The land is already heavily mined. The artillery is literally being fired into what is essentially a No Mans Land.

This is like being worried youll knock up your girlfriend after shes already pregnant.

And again; theyll run out of artillery and get destroyed otherwise.