Current Events > Biden ready to send more cluster bombs to Ukraine

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://theintercept.com/2023/07/05/ukraine-cluster-bombs-biden/

ON THE MORNING of July 22 last year, a Ukrainian woman living in the town of Izium, then occupied by invading Russian troops, was killed in shelling launched by the Ukrainian military. The bomb that killed her was no ordinary weapon.

According to investigators from Human Rights Watch, who visited the scene of the attack, her death was caused by a cluster munition, a weapon much of the world has moved to ban due to the indiscriminate harm that they cause to civilians. The salvo was allegedly fired from the Ukrainian side, according to witnesses, and detonated near the womans home, killing her and her dog.

The attack was very scary. Very loud. I was outside and there were a lot of explosions. The wife of my ex-husband came and told me to hurry to get inside, one witness told Human Rights Watch, according to a report released late Wednesday night. Another witness, who viewed the victims body in the aftermath and helped bury her in a local cemetery, said that her face and body were severely mutilated by the explosion.

As the Ukraine war drags on, the Biden administration is now reportedly in the final stages of deciding whether to send more of the bombs to the Ukrainian military. The decision to supply cluster munitions to Ukraine would likely be seen as a setback to nonproliferation efforts aimed at stopping use of the weapon.

The report by Human Rights Watch analyzing the impact of previous cluster munition attacks carried out last summer by the Ukrainian military found numerous dead and wounded civilians in Izium who were hit by exploding cluster bomblets.

Ukrainian cluster munition rocket attacks in the city of Izium in 2022 killed at least 8 civilians and wounded 15 more, the report said, adding that the true number of casualties was likely greater, as many wounded people had been taken to Russia for medical care and not returned.

Although investigators found forensic evidence pointing to Ukrainian culpability, the Ukrainian defense ministry said in a written letter to Human Rights Watch that cluster munitions were not used within or around the city of Izium in 2022 when it was under Russian occupation. The town was liberated by Ukrainian forces in the fall of that year.
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According to the Washington Post, the administration has recently been taking the temperature of members of Congress on the forthcoming decision. House Armed Services Committee Ranking Member Adam Smith, D-Wash., said he was open to giving Ukraine the weapons. When asked by The Intercept, a number of House Democrats declined to say whether they were for or against the move.

The move to transfer cluster munitions to the Ukrainian military comes on the heels of other U.S. initiatives to train Ukrainians on advanced fighter aircraft, and possibly provide them long-range missiles capable of striking deep into Russian-held territory. The transfer of cluster bombs to the Ukrainians would be much more ethically fraught.

Cluster munitions are controversial due to the manner in which bomblets are scattered around a targeted area, creating secondary explosions that can cause death and injury even long after a conflict has ceased.

The use of cluster attacks during the 2006 Israeli war in Lebanon killed and wounded hundreds of civilians. A decade later, swaths of southern Lebanon are still dangerous for civilians who are periodically killed or maimed by stray bomblets.

The bombs are currently at the center of an international campaign to ban their use in armed conflict. More than 100 states have signed an international convention on cluster munitions vowing not to employ them in war, produce them domestically, or encourage their use in foreign conflicts. Despite public pressure to join, the U.S. has not become a signatory to the convention.

https://twitter.com/KeaneBhatt/status/1677434629580529664

Darth Brandon using the dark side of the force to bring balance to the force

Meanwhile the Russians are bringing WW2 era T-55s out of mothballs because all their modern tanks are already scrap metal.

im ok with sending them nukes america failed ukraine when we said they would be taken care of if they gave them up never give up nukes

Personally I do not think it would be good to send nukes into a warzone.

Man I wish Japan would send them giant robots or something

As long as they dont use them against civilians I dont see the problem. Sure there might be some unexploded bombs after the war but the place is full of land mines and artillery shells too

Antifar posted...

Personally I do not think it would be good to send nukes into a warzone.

hey russia still attacking ukraine if they had nukes yes or no?

CADE_FOSTER posted...

hey russia still attacking ukraine if they had nukes yes or no?

Russia would fire nukes

no they wouldnt Putin isnt stupid

Uh yes he is lol

I can absolutely see the benefit that this is going to give Ukraine in breaching enemy trenches, and it's really not fair to compare the US's cluster bombs with their 1% failure rate to Russia's 40% failure rate ones. Finally, it's still worth pointing out that using cluster bombs to hit trenches is still decidedly different from using cluster bombs to hit apartment buildings.

That being said, we're definitely going to take a propaganda hit for sending them over there, so I really hope this is a necessary move to help them push through to the coast and not overplaying our hand.

war is hell

Maybe I'm overhyping it, but I think this is potentially game-changing, comparable to the HIMARS. Cluster munitions are incredibly powerful, especially against trenches. These will be high quality compared to what Russia and Ukraine have already been using with much lower failure rates. And more importantly they will be fired from high quality western-made artillery with significantly better accuracy.

But the biggest thing is the US has tons of it that they don't plan on using and they can be immediately deployed since Ukraine has a lot of western artillery.

Clusterin Russians?

Glad youre back tc

Son_Of_Spam posted...

Maybe I'm overhyping it, but I think this is potentially game-changing, comparable to the HIMARS. Cluster munitions are incredibly powerful, especially against trenches. These will be high quality compared to what Russia and Ukraine have already been using with much lower failure rates. And more importantly they will be fired from high quality western-made artillery with significantly better accuracy.

But the biggest thing is the US has tons of it that they don't plan on using and they can be immediately deployed since Ukraine has a lot of western artillery.

They'll move the needle, but any artillery munition would for Ukraine. One of the biggest things that's holding back Ukraine's warmaking capabilities is a signficant disadvantage in artillery munitions relative to Russia.

Besides that, the risk is Ukraine's to take. We're not dropping bombs into the Vietnamese villagers, the Ukrainians are attacking Russian positions near Ukrainian civilians. This is a burden that Ukraine is willing to bear, and just a little spoiler alert for you--It is a nearly insignificant burden compared to everything else being asked of Ukrainian citizens. Just as a very clear reminder--This war is an existential crisis for the survival of the Ukrainian identity. That means Ukrainian civilians are going to die, and sometimes from Ukrainian weapon systems even. If you upset about cluster bombs killing Ukrainian civilians then maybe you should have done something to stop Putin from plowing his army hundreds of miles into Ukrainian territory. Before the situation became entrenched and attritional. Before civilian deaths mounted. Now it's Ukraine's sole responsibility to liberate it's people, and we're going to sit around and criticize them for using the best means available to do so?

Some of these "journalists" and Non-Profits need to get some fucking perspective.

Pogo_Marimo posted...

They'll move the needle, but any artillery munition would for Ukraine. One of the biggest things that's holding back Ukraine's warmaking capabilities is a signficant disadvantage in artillery munitions relative to Russia.

Besides that, the risk is Ukraine's to take. We're not dropping bombs into the Vietnamese villagers, the Ukrainians are attacking Russian positions near Ukrainian civilians. This is a burden that Ukraine is willing to bear, and just a little spoiler alert for you--It is a nearly insignificant burden compared to everything else being asked of Ukrainian citizens. Just as a very clear reminder--This war is an existential crisis for the survival of the Ukrainian identity. That means Ukrainian civilians are going to die, and sometimes from Ukrainian weapon systems even. If you upset about cluster bombs killing Ukrainian civilians then maybe you should have done something to stop Putin from plowing his army hundreds of miles into Ukrainian territory. Before the situation became entrenched and attritional. Before civilian deaths mounted. Now it's Ukraine's sole responsibility to liberate it's people, and we're going to sit around and criticize them for using the best means available to do so?

Some of these "journalists" and Non-Profits need to get some fucking perspective.

The way I see it nothing will mathematically save more Ukrainian lives than getting Russia out as fast as possible. And these cluster munitions will go a long ways towards helping with that.

s0nicfan posted...

That being said, we're definitely going to take a propaganda hit for sending them over there,

I doubt it. No one in NATO will say anything. Putin will send his ambassador to the UN to feign indignant offense. That will be the end of it.

Sad

s0nicfan posted...

really not fair to compare the US's cluster bombs with their 1% failure rate to Russia's 40% failure rate ones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/us/cluster-weapons-duds-ukraine.html
The Pentagons statements indicate that the cluster munitions that will be sent to Ukraine contain older grenades known to have a failure rate of 14 percent or more.

Antifar posted...

The Pentagons statements indicate that the cluster munitions that will be sent to Ukraine contain older grenades known to have a failure rate of 14 percent or more.

So... Reagan-era surplus?

that's cool, but still not enough. NATO countries need to deploy troops into ukraine with the US leading the charge

Kaiganeer posted...

that's cool, but still not enough. NATO countries need to deploy troops into ukraine with the US leading the charge

No.

Antifar posted...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/us/cluster-weapons-duds-ukraine.html
The Pentagons statements indicate that the cluster munitions that will be sent to Ukraine contain older grenades known to have a failure rate of 14 percent or more.

Then why does Biden have to sign off certifying that all of the munitions have a one percent or less failure rate?

And no I will not read your link because it is paywalled.

UnholyMudcrab posted...

No.

also no.

Proxy war is one thing. Open NATO engagement is WW3.

Where were everybody that are against this when Russia used cluster bombs?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Not effectively, modern mines (which Russia does have some of) are difficult to trigger/destroy without a direct hit, and using enough cluster artillery to be sure you got the mines means your guys end up marching through UXO from the cluster bombs themselves.

UnholyMudcrab posted...

No.

Questionmarktarius posted...

also no.

Proxy war is one thing. Open NATO engagement is WW3.

Why not?... it'd scare the hell out of everyone.

Maybe people will then calm the hell down.

PrettyBoyFloyd posted...

Maybe people will then calm the hell down.

WW3 seems like it would be the opposite of that.

Pogo_Marimo posted...

They'll move the needle, but any artillery munition would for Ukraine. One of the biggest things that's holding back Ukraine's warmaking capabilities is a signficant disadvantage in artillery munitions relative to Russia.

Besides that, the risk is Ukraine's to take. We're not dropping bombs into the Vietnamese villagers, the Ukrainians are attacking Russian positions near Ukrainian civilians. This is a burden that Ukraine is willing to bear, and just a little spoiler alert for you--It is a nearly insignificant burden compared to everything else being asked of Ukrainian citizens. Just as a very clear reminder--This war is an existential crisis for the survival of the Ukrainian identity. That means Ukrainian civilians are going to die, and sometimes from Ukrainian weapon systems even. If you upset about cluster bombs killing Ukrainian civilians then maybe you should have done something to stop Putin from plowing his army hundreds of miles into Ukrainian territory. Before the situation became entrenched and attritional. Before civilian deaths mounted. Now it's Ukraine's sole responsibility to liberate it's people, and we're going to sit around and criticize them for using the best means available to do so?

Some of these "journalists" and Non-Profits need to get some fucking perspective.

so you think ukrainian national identity is more important than the lives of actual ukrainian people?

Not everyone is agreeing with the ban of these cluster weapons, as evident by United States Russia and Ukraine . If they want to use them in Ukraines territory then thats their choice.

Foppe posted...

Where were everybody that are against this when Russia used cluster bombs?

They were probably screaming out GTFO of Ukraine and stop attacking them Russia!

averagejoel posted...

so you think ukrainian national identity is more important than the lives of actual ukrainian people?

I'm sorry, is your argument that countries should just let themselves be conquered with as little bloodshed as possible rather than fighting defensive wars against invading armies?

we didn't send the clusters
they were always droppin', but we tried to stop 'em

skullmagic2 posted...

I'm sorry, is your argument that countries should just let themselves be conquered with as little bloodshed as possible rather than fighting defensive wars against invading armies?

answer my question and I'll consider continuing this conversation with you

skullmagic2 posted...

I'm sorry, is your argument that countries should just let themselves be conquered with as little bloodshed as possible rather than fighting defensive wars against invading armies?

There is no proof that letting them roll over wont caused them to be buried. There is no proof that the conflict would stop at Ukraine. For all we know, Poland is next should Ukraine fall.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/why-putin-wants-to-destroy-ukraine/
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1514811357178212362
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/04/putin-wants-to-kill-us-totally-ukrainians-hold-firm-under-bombardment
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-07-01/volodymyr-zelenskiy-only-russia-wants-to-kill-me-everyone-wants-to-kill-putin.html?outputType=amp

averagejoel posted...

answer my question and I'll consider continuing this conversation with you

It's a false dichotomy.

The lives of Ukrainian people are being lost, currently, without them using cluster munitions.

Using cluster munitions to more quickly and more effectively defeat the Russian invaders will likely result in a net decrease in Ukrainian casualties, possibly by a very significant factor, even after accounting for the UXO.

The fact that it also protects Ukrainian sovereignty and prevents Ukrainian national identity from being genocided makes it a win/win.

There is no proof that letting them roll over wont caused them to be buried. There is no proof that the conflict would stop at Ukraine. For all we know, Poland is next should Ukraine fall

Very true.

divot1338 posted...

Then why does Biden have to sign off certifying that all of the munitions have a one percent or less failure rate?

And no I will not read your link because it is paywalled.

Biden has the power to override the 1% failure rate stipulation.

Which is what he is doing.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1677591791111905280

Oh yeah, for those who loathe clicking the tweet, here's the content of it:

Defense Minister Reznikov explained how Ukraine will use US cluster munitions:

• munition will not be used on the territory of the Russian Federation - only for the de-occupation of Ukrainian territories;
• ammunition will be used only in places where the Russian military gathers;
• Ukraine will keep strict records of the use of these weapons and the local areas where they will be used.
• Ukraine will report to partners on the use of these ammunitions and their effectiveness.

Kaiganeer posted...

that's cool, but still not enough. NATO countries need to deploy troops into ukraine with the US leading the charge

Always the hawks with the works takes.

Not the tankies.

I prefer Goo Goo Clusters.

Jayapal has worn out her welcome. She does nothing but undermine Biden at every chance. She is too far left and hurt liberals overall.

TheHorus posted...

Not everyone is agreeing with the ban of these cluster weapons, as evident by United States Russia and Ukraine .

Just generally it's a red flag when the US and Russia are international outliers on an issue.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

It's just he's fine with a country being destroyed. People like him make me sick.