Current Events > Pokemon Gen V be like

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Bad Guy: "Enslaving Pokemon and forcing them to fight for you is inherently immoral"
Bad Guy: "Because I'm the bad guy"

Didn't Ghetsis also want to control all Pokemon too?

Just another Pokemon game where the idea is okay but their execution is immoral.

CrimsonAngel posted...

Didn't Ghetsis also want to control all Pokemon too?

The fundamental problem is the original argument he made is legitimate, and was left unaddressed.

Better not to bring it up than to do it and then pretend it's just a ruse.

DarkRoast posted...

Bad Guy: "Enslaving Pokemon and forcing them to fight for you is inherently immoral"
Bad Guy: "Because I'm the bad guy"

Yeah but Ghetsis was lying about it and just using it as a way to control N to get what he wanted.

Flockaveli posted...

Just another Pokemon game where the idea is okay but their execution is immoral.

It's why I like Team Rocket.

They're the mafia. That's it. That's their thing.

EmbraceOfDeath posted...

Yeah but Ghetsis was lying about it and just using it as a way to control N to get what he wanted.

I get that. But the problem is that it's a legitimate argument, even if it's used illegitimately.
It's not something that should be pointed out and then just excused away as the machinations of a villain.

It IS a fundamentally screwed up thing that people capture Pokemon and fight with them. The way to get around that is to simply not bring it up, otherwise you're acknowledging that the people of your world do recognize the ethical ambiguity of it.

Ghetsis was about to kill you in B2/W2

They bring it up again in Legends and just kinda shrug it off. They should really just stop questioning the ethics of pokeballs if they aren't gonna emphatically and convincingly justify them.

Hambo the Hog posted...

They bring it up again in Legends and just kinda shrug it off. They should really just stop questioning the ethics of pokeballs if they aren't gonna emphatically and convincingly justify them.

Yeah I just got to the part where Calaba basically says "oh so you're catching them in those balls and making them fight, huh?"

They've stated that Pokemon want to be partners with humans the only reason they fight is they want a worthy partner. It's handwave but real world ethics aren't relevant.

CrimsonAngel posted...

They've stated that Pokemon want to be partners with humans the only reason they fight is they want a worthy partner. It's handwave but real world ethics aren't relevant.

I agree, they're not relevant.
But the problem is that they become relevant when you directly try to address them the story, though. It just makes things super weird and uncomfy.

When it's played off as a meta joke (for instance, Link destroying every pot in the house literally full of pots in Wind Waker and then the guy coming in and asking "who the hell DOES THIS?") it can be funny, but this isn't.

Hambo the Hog posted...

They bring it up again in Legends and just kinda shrug it off. They should really just stop questioning the ethics of pokeballs if they aren't gonna emphatically and convincingly justify them.

They should run a bit about how Pokemon can actually just up and leave the pokeballs any time they want to but choose not to because they actually like the trainers.

And canonize the game systems in reality. Pokemon like to be made to fight each other because that's how they get stronger and evolve.

I don't think it completely counters the morality issues of pokeballs but it makes things more interesting.

Kajagogo posted...

Ghetsis was about to kill you in B2/W2

He also struck Lillie in USUM and threatened to kill her if you didn't disarm yourself. The game even mentioned how your Pokemon were shaking in rage. And this was after you defeated him.

Tyranthraxus posted...

They should run a bit about how Pokemon can actually just up and leave the pokeballs any time they want to but choose not to because they actually like the trainers.

And canonize the game systems in reality. Pokemon like to be made to fight each other because that's how they get stronger and evolve.

I don't think it completely counters the morality issues of pokeballs but it makes things more interesting.

I mean I'm willing to assume that in the actual Pokemon universe people don't just go around catching 900 Pidgies and leaving them in the computer storage system, but it's still kind of fucked up to think that Pokemon can just be deposited in storage and left there forever.

DarkRoast posted...

Yeah I just got to the part where Calaba basically says "oh so you're catching them in those balls and making them fight, huh?"

Yes! Members of both clans bring that up constantly and then in the end they're just like "oh it's just another way of bonding with your pokemon" as if pokeballs couldn't be used to enslave them by less kind trainers.

CrimsonAngel posted...

They've stated that Pokemon want to be partners with humans the only reason they fight is they want a worthy partner. It's handwave but real world ethics aren't relevant.

And yeah they throw this excuse around but it doesn't explain a pokemon only staying in the ball if it's asleep or paralyzed or if it's a master ball. No consent involved there.

Hambo the Hog posted...

Yes! Members of both clans bring that up constantly and then in the end they're just like "oh it's just another way of bonding with your pokemon" as if pokeballs couldn't be used to enslave them by less kind trainers.

And yeah they throw this excuse around but it doesn't explain a pokemon only staying in the ball if it's asleep or paralyzed or if it's a master ball. No consent involved there.

I mean it's pretty fucking clear that some Pokemon don't want to be caught, considering they try to break out of the Pokeball

DarkRoast posted...

I mean I'm willing to assume that in the actual Pokemon universe people don't just go around catching 900 Pidgies and leaving them in the computer storage system, but it's still kind of fucked up to think that Pokemon can just be deposited in storage and left there forever.

I'm not exactly sure that's what happens. They go to "someone's" PC but I always imagine that someone is caring for them.

In legends they don't even have a PC it's straight up pastures and I don't see why that can't be a useful metric going forward. As for "but how do you get them from anywhere" legends already solved for that with Abra.

Hambo the Hog posted...

They bring it up again in Legends and just kinda shrug it off. They should really just stop questioning the ethics of pokeballs if they aren't gonna emphatically and convincingly justify them.

They should have had no poke balls in Legends. Just have them walk by your side.

Zikten posted...

They should have had no poke balls in Legends. Just have them walk by your side.

In all fairness, in Gen II they specifically talk about how the original Pokemon trainers "hollowed out Apricorns to make Pokeballs". It's why Apricorn Balls are generally considered rare and cool to have in the later games. You usually only get a handful of them in each game, if you get any at all.

Love Ball / Moon Ball / Fast Ball / Level Ball / Heavy Ball / Lure Ball / Friend Ball

The ultimate desire is to have a Pokemon that could only be caught in an Apricorn Ball in a single generation and then bring it to a later one.

Zikten posted...

They should have had no poke balls in Legends. Just have them walk by your side.

I'm all for walking with your pokemon outside of the ball again, but you would still need a system for recruiting new pokeymans to your team. But hey, maybe just throw a special bait or some kind of offering and they'd voluntarily decide to tag along. That would be an ethical load off the back.

It could work like in World of Warcraft. Hunters collect pets by taming them

Maybe have some kind of taming minigame

Or maybe don't be concerned with the ethics and just enjoy the game

CrimsonAngel posted...

Or maybe don't be concerned with the ethics and just enjoy the game

Or this.

Dear GameFreak, please stop asking moral and ethical questions if you aren't going to answer them in a satisfactory manner. Thank you!

From what I know they used to justify it by saying Pokmon are play fighting you and testing you if you're worthy. Legends threw all that in the trash.

I think one review I've read said that Arceus plays fast and loose with both the theme of capturing wild animals and colonialism which I think are true. The problem with Arceus is that it wants to portray Pokmon as wild creatures but also as friendly little creatures too. Pokmon being and acting like aggressive wild animals play a key role in the story, everyone is telling you all the time to stay alive and it plays an important role in the backstory of two characters and both clans since they need the protection of Noble Pokmon from wild Pokmon. There's also nothing suggesting in the dialouge that you're capturing wild Pokmon with their approval and many items you use saying the opposite like the existence of the heavy ball, or the game rewarding you for sneaking up on Pokmon and capturing them and there's also items that stun them. You're basically poaching them away from their habitats, all those alpha and shinies you have chilling at the pasture were taken away by force or by stealth. The Pokmon are basically wild animals defending their territory and themselves.

And this is where Pokmon tries to lessen this by having released Pokmon leaving you little presents, even if they were trying to kill you a minute ago, or an NPC by the pastures telling you that they might want to be friendly because they don't break out of the pastures. Also people only start to get friendly with them by capturing them for some reason yet the other clans actually bonded with their Pokmon, no need to forcefully capture them. I think the drifloon quest shows both Pokmon as dangerous but later on in town you see a kid with a drifloon as a partner. So yeah Pokmon wants to have it's cake and eat it too by showing Pokmon as dangerous but also as cuddly creatures since they won't commit to either all the way and capturing is a major theme and the foundation of the series.

If you keep a pet in your home you're just as bad as a Pokmon trainer. Animals were put on earth for humans to use. So use them.

DarkRoast posted...

I mean I'm willing to assume that in the actual Pokemon universe people don't just go around catching 900 Pidgies and leaving them in the computer storage system, but it's still kind of fucked up to think that Pokemon can just be deposited in storage and left there forever.

Not to mention the kid with the level 50 Charizard cooking dozens of level 3 Weedle and Caterpie trying to score a Pikachu

Do all Pokemon understand human language or just ones smart enough to speak it back?
Would it mean more if you were to take a talking Mewtwo, give him the dumbest nickname, give him a really stupid hold item like a giant metal ball or a toxic orb that he apparently can't drop, put him in a PC box with a stupid name and leave him there?

What happens if a Pokemon dies in the PC? Does the pokeball get confused about what it's holding and stop functioning? Do you throw the ball and out comes a big puddle of red mush? Is your Hitmonlee now suddenly a Gengar? Does said Gengar hold down the fort in that Pokeball or does it teleport to the nearest ghost level?

Was there a lore reason for the unidentified ghost/silph scope thing in the first games? Was the Pokemon tower especially haunted compared to the rest?

Pokemon Therapist: Pokemon are our companions and friends. They won't hurt you.
Pokemon:
https://youtu.be/AcZyDugPd8s

Everything about Guzzlord is ****ed up. He literally hails from the distant alternate future where Alola was destroyed.